Can Anabaptism be Catholic and vice versa?

[Sudsy]

First of all, definitions. I will use the definition of Anabaptism as exhibited in Harold Bender's "Anabaptist Vision", and more specifically Cory Anderson's definition of "plain Anabaptist". I would like to exclude sects of Anabaptism that are transitioning to mainline Protestantism, evangelicalism, etc. as they are not really relevant to this discussion.

Likewise, by "Catholic", I mean "belonging to the Roman Catholic Church". This specifically excludes Protestantism, Old Catholics, Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox, Church of the East, Oriental Orthodox, and so on. "Catholic" as a religion is a very well defined term.

The question keeps coming up if someone can be both Catholic and Anabaptist, or if the two churches and sets of doctrines can somehow be compatible with each other. My argument is that no, they cannot, for several reasons:

- The Roman Catholic Church has practiced infant baptism for a very long time - certainly practiced in the 5th century, and probably practiced going back to the 3rd. This is well-attested. Infant baptism being the norm for Catholic families is taught by the RCC and opposition to infant baptism is taught against by the RCC. The RCC teaches that infant baptism imparts grace to the infant as a sacrament. This doctrine is not controversial and is universally accepted in RCC circles.

- The Anabaptists, on the other hand, have practiced adult (as in capable of making decisions, generally age 11 or older) believers' baptism upon confession of faith since their founding in 1525. They do not believe there is ever a reason to baptise infants. Most Anabaptists don't believe in baptism as a sacrament, although some do, but those who do (perhaps German Baptists believe this) believe it should be practiced by an adult believer after confession of faith.

- The Roman Catholic Church requires one submit to and believe in the pope's ultimate authority over the church. Someone who stops doing this, or a group that stops doing so, is no longer "Catholic". In 1054, a large group decided to reject the pope's authority and are now known as the Eastern Orthodox. Likewise, in the 16th century, Protestants rejected papal authority and became known as Protestants.

- Anabaptists, on the other hand, do not accept the pope's authority at all and never have; their founding confession says this regarding the pope (and infant baptism):

This excludes all infant baptism, the highest and chief abomination of the pope.

Therefore, for this reason, I do not see that Anabaptism and Catholicism can ever be reconciled. One of them would have to vastly change. Anabaptists who accepted infant baptism would no longer be Anabaptists. Catholics who rejected the pope's authority would no longer be Catholic. (They would now be Old Catholic, or Anglican, or maybe Orthodox.)

If the pope decided to institute a doctrine of believers' baptism and then also decided to institute there will no longer be heirarchal papal authority, then perhaps it would be possible for Catholics to become "compatible" with Anabaptism. That is a very big "if".

To the underlined - can you provide some examples where this question 'keeps coming up'. I must be looking at the wrong threads or just getting too old to recal things.

[Josh]

In 1527, Catholics and Anabaptists would have agreed on matters like modesty and the woman’s head covering…

[RZehr]

Most Anabaptists groups, with a few notable exceptions, claim to be small "c" catholic, that is members of the universal church. In that sense I am a catholic Mennonite.

In 1527, Catholics would never accept Anabaptists as catholic. And vice versa.

[Verity]

Josh, I do not question your premise. Simply trying to figure out where you are going with this...

[Bootstrap]

Why don't plain Anabaptists wear habits like Catholic priests and nuns? Why don't Catholics wear plain Mennonite clothing? Because both forms of clothing have meaning and involve identity in a community.

Perhaps some Anabaptist does wear a habit. Perhaps some Catholic wears plain Mennonite clothing. But so far, the pictures we have been shown are easy to identify as Anabaptists or historical buildings or open air museums. Over the years, we have looked at literally hundreds of such photos, which were not what we were told.

It does seem to be an Internet fantasy. If it exists in real life, it's not a large, established community. And it's an odd choice if true - what is it supposed to mean? Why would a Catholic dress like people from a movement that rejected the Catholic church? Are Catholics unable to wear plain, simple clothing from their own traditions?

Who here has been to a Plain Catholic community? Who can give evidence that they exist? Or of a history of such a movement over time? Given all the claims of commonality with Mennonites, I would expect people to know them.

[ohio jones]

The question keeps coming up if someone can be both Catholic and Anabaptist, or if the two churches and sets of doctrines can somehow be compatible with each other. My argument is that no, they cannot, for several reasons:

To the underlined - can you provide some examples where this question 'keeps coming up'. I must be looking at the wrong threads or just getting too old to recal things.

https://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=815

[ken_sylvania]

Why don't plain Anabaptists wear habits like Catholic priests and nuns? Why don't Catholics wear plain Mennonite clothing? Because both forms of clothing have meaning and involve identity in a community.

Perhaps some Anabaptist does wear a habit. Perhaps some Catholic wears plain Mennonite clothing. But so far, the pictures we have been shown are easy to identify as Anabaptists or historical buildings or open air museums. Over the years, we have looked at literally hundreds of such photos, which were not what we were told.

It does seem to be an Internet fantasy. If it exists in real life, it's not a large, established community. And it's an odd choice if true - what is it supposed to mean? Why would a Catholic dress like people from a movement that rejected the Catholic church? Are Catholics unable to wear plain, simple clothing from their own traditions?

Who here has been to a Plain Catholic community? Who can give evidence that they exist? Or of a history of such a movement over time? Given all the claims of commonality with Mennonites, I would expect people to know them.

Well, we have at least one point of agreement between MaxPC and Bootstrap! Max has been saying for years that the PCs are not a large, established community. Isn't it great that Bootstrap has been able to verify that!

[Sudsy]

The question keeps coming up if someone can be both Catholic and Anabaptist, or if the two churches and sets of doctrines can somehow be compatible with each other. My argument is that no, they cannot, for several reasons:

To the underlined - can you provide some examples where this question 'keeps coming up'. I must be looking at the wrong threads or just getting too old to recal things.

https://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=815

I may have missed it but where does a Catholic say they are also an Anabaptist ? I see where the term 'plain' as used regarding how some Catholics live but I can't find where a Catholic claims they are also an Anabaptist. I would not claim I'm an Anabaptist or a Catholic but rather a Christ follower in the understandings I have in following Christ.

Regarding whether an Anabaptist can be a Catholic and vice versa, imo, not anymore than a Mennonite also calling themselves a Baptist or a Pentecostal. All of us in our different denominations or non-denominationals have some similar basic beliefs as Christians and imo, I think some of us are in for some big surprises as to who Jesus allowed and did not allow into His Kingdom.

[Neto]

....
It does seem to be an Internet fantasy. If it exists in real life, it's not a large, established community. And it's an odd choice if true - what is it supposed to mean? Why would a Catholic dress like people from a movement that rejected the Catholic church? Are Catholics unable to wear plain, simple clothing from their own traditions?

Who here has been to a Plain Catholic community? Who can give evidence that they exist? Or of a history of such a movement over time? Given all the claims of commonality with Mennonites, I would expect people to know them.

According to the things I've seen (written, on the internet, not in person), these "plain Catholics" do not claim to 'live in communities'. To my understanding, they are individual families who may only very seldom gather as a group, but attend services with "regular Catholics" in the closest diocese. Has there been a claim to huge numbers involved in this 'movement'? I do not know, because I haven't read most of these discussions about this dispute. I will just make it plain here, that I am not tempted in the least to join any Catholic movement. I feel very strongly about this central 'doctrine' or belief of the Dutch 'baptism-minded' - that we seek a pure church, not one with a full range of belief, where some dabble in immorality w/o any conviction. We do not believe in "the True Church within the full 'church'," as do 'State churches'.

[Soloist]

According to the things I've seen (written, on the internet, not in person), these "plain Catholics" do not claim to 'live in communities'. To my understanding, they are individual families who may only very seldom gather as a group, but attend services with "regular Catholics" in the closest diocese. Has there been a claim to huge numbers involved in this 'movement'? I do not know, because I haven't read most of these discussions about this dispute. I will just make it plain here, that I am not tempted in the least to join any Catholic movement. I feel very strongly about this central 'doctrine' or belief of the Dutch 'baptism-minded' - that we seek a pure church, not one with a full range of belief, where some dabble in immorality w/o any conviction. We do not believe in "the True Church within the full 'church'," as do 'State churches'.

I think the issue is that Max and these websites express how one lives as a plain Catholic rather then simply say they live plainly. Consider his common use of “we” in regard to plain Catholics.

As Plain Catholics, we avoid cinema so have declined.

Likewise, Plain Catholics have similar perspectives as you have regarding mass media and the internet. We do not allow our children access to the internet until they are 17 or 18 and even then, we monitor their usage. If they have to have a mobile, a simple flip phone suffices. Broadcast telly is not connected to Plain Catholic households.

Plain Catholics isolate from professional sports; carnivals, amusement parks, social media (such as FB, X, etc). We isolate from bars and parties that network with booze as a lubricant. We isolate from political rallies and those who only live to acquire another status symbol.