Ecclesiastes 11:5 vs Modern Science

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Re: Ecclesiastes 11:5 vs Modern Science

Post by JohnHurt »

Ken wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 12:36 pm But simply because he invents some "religion of science" and invents his 10 dogmas to go along with it doesn't make it true. And most of those so-called dogmas don't actually exist. Take for example, #3 "the laws of nature are fixed". In point of fact, Newtonian Physics with all of its laws has been supplanted by quantum mechanics at the micro level and by relativity. So what we think are scientific laws are, in fact, subject to change.

And most of the rest of these dogmas are simply statements by Sheldrake that don't have any bearing in the ordinary pursuit of science.
The laws of nature were fixed by "Science", until the discovery of relativity and quanta made them change their concepts. Now they are fixed again to include relativity and quanta, until another new "measurable" discovery makes them do otherwise.

These discoveries of the nature of sub atomic particles, or that light can bend around a star, should open our eyes that Nature is not fixed. But the dogmas of "Modern Science" is that if a clearly observable phenomena cannot be measured, then it does not exist. Relativity and quanta could be measured, so they invented a theory to reflect those measurements, even if they don't understand it.

But for any observable phenomena that cannot be measured, their dogma is that it does not exist.

One of the dogmas of science is that man does not have a soul, and there is no life after death. Yet many "Near Death Experiences" of the same nature have been experienced by many people, such as moving through a tunnel towards a light.

Here is a painting by Bosch about death from around 1500 AD, so apparently these identical Near Death Experiences have been evident for centuries:

Image

"Modern Science" discredits any idea that there is an afterlife because "Modern Science" is a religion, and claims it does not accept anything that is not material or can be measured and duplicated in the laboratory.

Yet, "Modern Science" cannot duplicate the supposed "Theory of Evolution" in the laboratory, but clings to it because it provides a foundation for believing that mankind is just another animal and has no soul or purpose in this life.

And this "evolutionary" idea that two monkeys with 48 chromosomes can give birth to two humans, a male and a female, with 46 chromosomes, in the same place and same time, so that these two humans with 46 chromosomes can mate (as they cannot mate with the other monkeys with 48 chromosomes), this is the most ridiculous concept "Modern Science" has ever foisted on humanity. It is a sheer "Act of Faith" to even consider such clap trap, much less teach it as a fact. But they do. And if you teach otherwise, you are a heretic to their religion.

And what "Modern Science" cannot explain, it ignores or discredits. It cannot explain how the DNA code is read to form the bones and organs in the blastocyst.

Another thing it cannot explain is how homing pigeons can find their way back home. "Modern Science" tell us it is "magnetoreception" or some ability of the pigeon to use the Earth's magnetic field is the way it finds its way home.

Yet, if you or I were blindfolded, taken 300 miles away from home and given a compass, without landmarks or a map we would never find our way home, or know the direction to travel. A compass does nothing if you don't know where you are,. or what direction you need to go, in relation to your destination. Yet, "Modern Science" tells us with a "straight face" that the homing pigeons are reading the earth's magnetic field, and that is how it works. What baloney!

What is interesting is that the "English Carrier Pigeon" historically had this same homing instinct, yet lost it after it was bred by man for domestication. The modern homing pigeons have some of this "English Carrier Pigeon" blood, but have retained their abilities too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homing_pigeon

Is the homing instinct in these pigeons in their DNA that was bred out of the English Carrier Pigeon, or is the homing instinct a shared experience that the homing pigeons have, that is perpetuated by using this power? Are instincts shared?

Like the "industrialized" chickens that will no long "brood" or sit on their nests to hatch their young, apparently the homing pigeon can lose its ability to find its way home due to the "assistance" of man. Did man destroy the DNA, or the pattern?

Regardless, "Modern Science" has absolutely no answer for how a homing pigeon can find its way back to its own nest, other than some ridiculous idea that the bird is using an internal compass. I can understand using this theory of following the earth's magnetism to explain migrating south for the winter, but not for the bird finding its own single nest in the heart of London.

Dr. Sheldrake has some other ideas that I cannot validate. One is that animals can detect earthquakes, and know when their master is on the way home. It would be interesting to see some blind studies on these ideas, but I doubt that "Modern Science" would ever fund such a study, and if someone else did, they would discredit the results.

We are still living in the age of Ignaz Semmelweis. I am glad doctors wash their hands after surgery now.
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Re: Ecclesiastes 11:5 vs Modern Science

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JohnHurt wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 9:15 am The laws of nature were fixed by "Science", until the discovery of relativity and quanta made them change their concepts. Now they are fixed again to include relativity and quanta, until another new "measurable" discovery makes them do otherwise.

These discoveries of the nature of sub atomic particles, or that light can bend around a star, should open our eyes that Nature is not fixed. But the dogmas of "Modern Science" is that if a clearly observable phenomena cannot be measured, then it does not exist. Relativity and quanta could be measured, so they invented a theory to reflect those measurements, even if they don't understand it.
The fact that the “scientific law” changed clearly shows you are wrong.
I have never heard about any clearly observable phenomena that they claim doesn’t exist. Can you give an example of one of these?
One of the dogmas of science is that man does not have a soul, and there is no life after death. Yet many "Near Death Experiences" of the same nature have been experienced by many people, such as moving through a tunnel towards a light.
From what I’ve read, they don’t know and have no way to determine it. Thus they don’t comment as they have no basis to argue for or against.

"
Modern Science" discredits any idea that there is an afterlife because "Modern Science" is a religion, and claims it does not accept anything that is not material or can be measured and duplicated in the laboratory.
Have you ever heard of anyone testing to see if there is an afterlife? The afterlife isn’t testable or observable. I believe in it but I could never produce testable or provable data for it. Trying to argue that “science” is ignoring something that can’t ever be quantified…
Yet, "Modern Science" cannot duplicate the supposed "Theory of Evolution" in the laboratory, but clings to it because it provides a foundation for believing that mankind is just another animal and has no soul or purpose in this life.
Generally I agree with you, I might quibble a little with how you wrote it.
Another thing it cannot explain is how homing pigeons can find their way back home. "Modern Science" tell us it is "magnetoreception" or some ability of the pigeon to use the Earth's magnetic field is the way it finds its way home.


It’s a theory.
Yet, if you or I were blindfolded, taken 300 miles away from home and given a compass, without landmarks or a map we would never find our way home, or know the direction to travel. A compass does nothing if you don't know where you are,. or what direction you need to go, in relation to your destination. Yet, "Modern Science" tells us with a "straight face" that the homing pigeons are reading the earth's magnetic field, and that is how it works. What baloney!
Actually, I could find my way home. There is literally nowhere in 300 miles from home that I couldn’t find my day home from with a compass. I wouldn’t even need the compass to find my way home although it would make it a lot easier if there was bad weather.
Now drop me in the middle of the Amazon, I’d die well before I got out.
You seem to think a stick can find water but a pigeon finding it’s way home is inconceivable?
Dr. Sheldrake has some other ideas that I cannot validate. One is that animals can detect earthquakes, and know when their master is on the way home. It would be interesting to see some blind studies on these ideas, but I doubt that "Modern Science" would ever fund such a study, and if someone else did, they would discredit the results.
I don’t know if any lab tests to validate these but I’ve heard similar for tornadoes, hurricanes and fires. Common knowledge seems to suggest that the earth quake thing is true.
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Re: Ecclesiastes 11:5 vs Modern Science

Post by Ken »

Soloist wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 9:37 am
Yet, "Modern Science" cannot duplicate the supposed "Theory of Evolution" in the laboratory, but clings to it because it provides a foundation for believing that mankind is just another animal and has no soul or purpose in this life.
Generally I agree with you, I might quibble a little with how you wrote it.
Darwin's Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection has four basic tenants:

1. In a population there are more individuals produced than can survive
2. There is a struggle for existence in which "fitter" organisms are more likely to survive and reproduce
3. Individuals within a population show genetic variation, and
4. Offspring tend to inherit their parent's characteristics.

That is basically it. Modern evolutionary theory adds some more sophisticated tenets. But that is evolution in a nutshell. Those four tenants. And every one of them has been demonstrated or proven to be true countless times by science. As has the idea that all four of those tenets work in concert to produce change in species over time.

And we might add a 5th one....time. Evolution takes time, lots of it depending on the frequency of generations of a particular species. Species with a long time between generations are going to change slower than species with very short time periods between generations.

If you want to disprove evolution the place to start is by disproving one of those four basic tenants. I mean go for it, knock yourself out. Pick one and disprove it.
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Re: Ecclesiastes 11:5 vs Modern Science

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Soloist wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 9:37 am The fact that the “scientific law” changed clearly shows you are wrong.
No, it shows that the "scientists" were wrong in the past, that is why they had to change.
Soloist wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 9:37 am I have never heard about any clearly observable phenomena that they claim doesn’t exist. Can you give an example of one of these?
Water dowsing. It exists, and they claim it does not exist.
I did not believe it either, until I held a coat hanger in my hand. But let's not go there again.
Soloist wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 9:37 am From what I’ve read, they don’t know and have no way to determine it. Thus they don’t comment as they have no basis to argue for or against.
They discredit shared experiences from a very large sample of people as being irrelevant.
Soloist wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 9:37 am Have you ever heard of anyone testing to see if there is an afterlife? The afterlife isn’t testable or observable. I believe in it but I could never produce testable or provable data for it. Trying to argue that “science” is ignoring something that can’t ever be quantified…
The Big Bang theory, and the theory of Evolution are not verifiable, or testable, but "Modern Science" affirms that these untestable and unobservable processes are true, even if they have no first hand witness accounts.

Yet the experiences of the afterlife has many, many first hand witness accounts, but is discredited because it goes against the religion of "science" that man is just another animal, with no higher purpose.

"Modern Science" is dead set to believe that there is no Supreme Being that created the Universe Who will hold us all accountable for our actions - a concept which explains nearly everything we see and why the world is as it is. The theory of "God" is all a test, a simulation, to separate the wheat from the chaff. "Science" does not believe this world was created by "God" at all, they say everything happened by random chance, which is quite a "whopper" of a lie for anyone to seriously consider as the truth. Random chance cannot beat entropy.
Soloist wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 9:37 am You seem to think a stick can find water but a pigeon finding it’s way home is inconceivable?
Both types of phenomena could be related to some type of field that "science" cannot measure, so the "scientists" tell us that neither one exists, or is relevant, or that we should not waste our time studying these things. All because they cannot explain them.

I cannot explain it either, that makes me want to know more about it.
Soloist wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 9:37 am I don’t know if any lab tests to validate these but I’ve heard similar for tornadoes, hurricanes and fires. Common knowledge seems to suggest that the earth quake thing is true.
Thank you, I appreciate your comments.

John
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Re: Ecclesiastes 11:5 vs Modern Science

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Ken wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 7:19 pm
Soloist wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 9:37 am
Yet, "Modern Science" cannot duplicate the supposed "Theory of Evolution" in the laboratory, but clings to it because it provides a foundation for believing that mankind is just another animal and has no soul or purpose in this life.
Generally I agree with you, I might quibble a little with how you wrote it.
Darwin's Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection has four basic tenants:

1. In a population there are more individuals produced than can survive
2. There is a struggle for existence in which "fitter" organisms are more likely to survive and reproduce
3. Individuals within a population show genetic variation, and
4. Offspring tend to inherit their parent's characteristics.

That is basically it. Modern evolutionary theory adds some more sophisticated tenets. But that is evolution in a nutshell. Those four tenants. And every one of them has been demonstrated or proven to be true countless times by science. As has the idea that all four of those tenets work in concert to produce change in species over time.

And we might add a 5th one....time. Evolution takes time, lots of it depending on the frequency of generations of a particular species. Species with a long time between generations are going to change slower than species with very short time periods between generations.

If you want to disprove evolution the place to start is by disproving one of those four basic tenants. I mean go for it, knock yourself out. Pick one and disprove it.
Those 4 tenants are true.

But how does Evolution create a new species with a different number of chromosomes as the offspring of an older species?

You need both a male and female, with the same number of chromosomes to produce offspring that are not sterile (as in the case of the mule or the liger).

Evolution must create a new "upward mutation" species to successfully fulfill an evolutionary "niche" (which is a tall order right there, and has never been observed in Nature).

And to create this "upward mutation", Evolution must create both a male and female of this new species, with the same number of chromosomes, in the same place and time, and they must successfully mate and have offspring.

Then, the offspring of the male and female of this new species must find mates of the same new species with the same number of chromosomes that are not such near relations as to create inbreeding.

So, Evolution must not only create a new species of a male and female at the same time and place, but it must create an entire community of individuals that are not closely related. Otherwise, the new species will have inbreeding issues.

And this problem of creating an entire community of individuals with a new set of chromosomes to create a viable new species must have happened for every new species of animal that has ever existed throughout time on planet Earth. Yet, we see no evidence of this process today.

That is absolutely impossible.
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Re: Ecclesiastes 11:5 vs Modern Science

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You seem to think a stick can find water but a pigeon finding it’s way home is inconceivable?
I'm not mocking, as I've seen folks find water with great accuracy. But this just struck my funny bone.
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Re: Ecclesiastes 11:5 vs Modern Science

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JohnHurt wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:46 am
Ken wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 7:19 pm ...Darwin's Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection has four basic tenants:
Those 4 tenants are true.
As a landlord, I am truly thankful that my tenants are even more true than the four tenants of Darwin's famous theory.
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Re: Ecclesiastes 11:5 vs Modern Science

Post by Ken »

mike wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2024 11:24 am
JohnHurt wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:46 am
Ken wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 7:19 pm ...Darwin's Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection has four basic tenants:
Those 4 tenants are true.
As a landlord, I am truly thankful that my tenants are even more true than the four tenants of Darwin's famous theory.
Spelling has never been one of my strongest talents! Especially when the misspelled word is some other correctly-spelled different word and the spell check doesn't catch it.
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Re: Ecclesiastes 11:5 vs Modern Science

Post by Ken »

JohnHurt wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:46 am
Ken wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 7:19 pm
Soloist wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 9:37 am
Generally I agree with you, I might quibble a little with how you wrote it.
Darwin's Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection has four basic tenants:

1. In a population there are more individuals produced than can survive
2. There is a struggle for existence in which "fitter" organisms are more likely to survive and reproduce
3. Individuals within a population show genetic variation, and
4. Offspring tend to inherit their parent's characteristics.

That is basically it. Modern evolutionary theory adds some more sophisticated tenets. But that is evolution in a nutshell. Those four tenants. And every one of them has been demonstrated or proven to be true countless times by science. As has the idea that all four of those tenets work in concert to produce change in species over time.

And we might add a 5th one....time. Evolution takes time, lots of it depending on the frequency of generations of a particular species. Species with a long time between generations are going to change slower than species with very short time periods between generations.

If you want to disprove evolution the place to start is by disproving one of those four basic tenants. I mean go for it, knock yourself out. Pick one and disprove it.
Those 4 tenants are true.

But how does Evolution create a new species with a different number of chromosomes as the offspring of an older species?

You need both a male and female, with the same number of chromosomes to produce offspring that are not sterile (as in the case of the mule or the liger).

Evolution must create a new "upward mutation" species to successfully fulfill an evolutionary "niche" (which is a tall order right there, and has never been observed in Nature).

And to create this "upward mutation", Evolution must create both a male and female of this new species, with the same number of chromosomes, in the same place and time, and they must successfully mate and have offspring.

Then, the offspring of the male and female of this new species must find mates of the same new species with the same number of chromosomes that are not such near relations as to create inbreeding.

So, Evolution must not only create a new species of a male and female at the same time and place, but it must create an entire community of individuals that are not closely related. Otherwise, the new species will have inbreeding issues.

And this problem of creating an entire community of individuals with a new set of chromosomes to create a viable new species must have happened for every new species of animal that has ever existed throughout time on planet Earth. Yet, we see no evidence of this process today.

That is absolutely impossible.
No, it is not impossible. Chromosomes themselves can evolve, fuse, and split through various mutations. There is a lot of scientific research in this area. Google "chromosome evolution" if you are curious. Of course whether you choose to accept it or dismiss it is your choice as with anything else. But this is not some area of science for which there is a "black box" of missing information.
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Re: Ecclesiastes 11:5 vs Modern Science

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Ken wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2024 11:30 am
mike wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2024 11:24 am
JohnHurt wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:46 am
Those 4 tenants are true.
As a landlord, I am truly thankful that my tenants are even more true than the four tenants of Darwin's famous theory.
Spelling has never been one of my strongest talents! Especially when the misspelled word is some other correctly-spelled different word and the spell check doesn't catch it.
With as often as you malaprop that word (with both spellings alternating in this post!) and as often as we lampoon it, you'd think the correct usage would be living rent-free in your head by now. :P
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