Speaking Truth in Posts

[Sudsy]

This thread is to discuss how we might be stepping over the line when making a point and perhaps entering into the sin of lying.

I can write a post here to make a point and in doing this make some statements to imply that what I am saying is 'the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth'. On the other hand, I could write a statement I think may be true and preface it with something like 'I believe' or 'IMO' or 'Perhaps' or 'It seems to me', etc that suggests what I say following this is really not a proven fact but more of a statement of what could be true.

For instance, I could say '90% of Christians do not tithe'. If I state things in that way, is it true ? No, it isn't true unless it can be proven to be exactly true that '90% of Christians do not tithe' at the moment it was expressed.

Often things are exageratted to put emphasis on a statement and believed to be acceptable. But is exageratting and using hyperbole not distorting truth for special affect and in doing so, is actually lying, stating something that is factually untrue ?

If one looks a the posts made here, sometimes statements are made using statistics like 'half of all Christians --' or '2% of Christians believe ----' or 'more people do ________ than they do ________' etc, etc. Are these not lies when they cannot be backed up by facts ?

What are your views on when we are lying as in not telling the truth ?

[Soloist]

Perhaps a good question as well is how we should respond as Christians to other Christians lying?

Many of us have encountered either exaggerated responses or refusal to admit being wrong when confronted with proof.
Is it speaking truth to confront lies?

[RZehr]

It think it is worth mentioning that hyperbole and parables are generally different than lying.

[ohio jones]

Lies are serious. Accusing someone of lying should not be done lightly.

I do not consider an un-nuanced statement a lie just because it is inaccurate or mistaken. All of us arrive at wrong understandings at times, often because we receive wrong information. Also, sometimes the words don't quite come out the way we intend them to.

However, if someone knows that what they are saying is wrong, or persists in claiming that it is true after they have been clearly shown that it is wrong, then I would consider it a lie.

There's also the category of deception, where someone repeats a lie but believes it is truth. In this case I think the greater blame belongs to the one who initiated the lie.

[Verity]

Thank you for the good reminder, Sudsy. I guess that I've made it clear in other posts that I don't put a lot of stock in statistics, since they merely represent the personal experience/observation of a limited number of people. They can help open our eyes to relevant needs (ie. statistics in a school show that 75% of students are scoring low in a certain subject), but they are not definitive.

When listening to others, I want to give grace to hear them out as fellow humans, ones that will not get everything right 100% of the time. I respect the individual who makes effort to come back and clear something they misreported inadvertently. I admire those who can say "I'm sorry, I was wrong". That is my desire. And I'm grateful when others give me grace when I don't achieve that.

Not all truth needs told. If my motive is to destroy it would be better to keep silent to any who are not directly involved.

[ken_sylvania]

For instance, I could say '90% of Christians do not tithe'. If I state things in that way, is it true ? No, it isn't true unless it can be proven to be exactly true that '90% of Christians do not tithe' at the moment it was expressed.

I disagree. Truth is truth whether or not it can be proven.
Now, I think I would agree that in most cases without proof we can't be certain whether or not a specific statement is true, but that proof doesn't change the accuracy of the statement.

[Verity]

Lies are serious. Accusing someone of lying should not be done lightly.

I do not consider an un-nuanced statement a lie just because it is inaccurate or mistaken. All of us arrive at wrong understandings at times, often because we receive wrong information. Also, sometimes the words don't quite come out the way we intend them to.

However, if someone knows that what they are saying is wrong, or persists in claiming that it is true after they have been clearly shown that it is wrong, then I would consider it a lie.

There's also the category of deception, where someone repeats a lie but believes it is truth. In this case I think the greater blame belongs to the one who initiated the lie.

How would you discern between someone who knows they are wrong and is lying and someone who is deceived?

What about individuals who consistently reverse what they said? A benign example, but I say that car is blue, they say it is gray. Later in a group discussion they say "I said it was blue but jerk here said it was gray, can you believe it?" Witness close by looks at you and rolls their eyes "Here we go again..." Can an individual get to the point where they truly don't know what they think/say?

Lies destroy trust. It is impossible to get close to someone who does not tell the truth.

[steve-in-kville]

Perhaps a good question as well is how we should respond as Christians to other Christians lying?

Many of us have encountered either exaggerated responses or refusal to admit being wrong when confronted with proof.
Is it speaking truth to confront lies?

I've known a few "Christians" that were chronic liers. It was painful to carry on a conversation with them.

[Josh]

Thank you for the good reminder, Sudsy. I guess that I've made it clear in other posts that I don't put a lot of stock in statistics, since they merely represent the personal experience/observation of a limited number of people. They can help open our eyes to relevant needs (ie. statistics in a school show that 75% of students are scoring low in a certain subject), but they are not definitive.

That's an interesting position to take, and certainly one you are welcome to hold; most of us (myself included) accept standard statistical models and indeed will then make statements of fact based on them. So I can say something like, for example, that people who cohabit as opposed to people who are married have 35% more domestic violence*.

Statistical observations are not based on "personal experience of a limited number of people"; they are done with enough of a sample size to remove personal biases (or at least, a high quality study should do that), and then the result has a "confidence interval". For example, my statistic above might have a confidence interval of 95% that it is within +/- 5% of being correct.

I am open to the idea that you might have your idea of what your truth is, and I have my idea. Mine would include statistics. From what you have said, yours doesn't. This means we will tend to find ourselves at loggerheads when discussing certain things.

Not all truth needs told. If my motive is to destroy it would be better to keep silent to any who are not directly involved.

This may be true; however, I am a bit disturbed with the example I have seen in some circles where "certain" truths are not to be told because they would be too embarrassing for certain people who like to keep major sin issues a secret.

[MaxPC]

This is an outstanding discussion, Sudsy. I am glad to see others take your thread seriously. I also see exaggeration as a form of lying as it is most often used to win an argument or contest; and/or to impress others.

Deliberately smearing the good name of another is another form of lying I believe, e.g. repeating gossip.
Will Scripture verses be of use?

Matthew 5:22
But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 5:37
But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

James 3
8 But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. 9 With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the [f]similitude of God. 10 Out of the same mouth proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be so. 11 Does a spring send forth fresh water and bitter from the same opening?