Piper on Patriotism in Church

General Christian Theology
Post Reply
MattY
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 5:36 pm
Location: Ohio
Affiliation: Beachy
Contact:

Piper on Patriotism in Church

Post by MattY »

http://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/s ... -in-church

With the Fourth of July coming up, someone asked Piper about patriotism in the church. It makes this person uncomfortable. Piper agrees, and says further that more than discomfort, there are real biblical principles at stake.

Jesus told the one Pharisee that he was "not far from the kingdom". One might say Piper is "not far from Anabaptism" in some ways. Of course, Piper is a Calvinist. But some of that persuasion reject him as insufficiently pure because he espouses New Covenant theology rather than traditional Reformed Covenant theology.
When we are born again, we are united to Christ, our King, and we are delivered from the domain of darkness and transferred into the kingdom of the Son of God so that now it can be said with glorious and profound reality, “Our citizenship is in heaven” (Philippians 3:20).

Therefore, wherever we live on earth, whatever country, whatever tribe, whatever family or clan, we are pilgrims, sojourners, refugees, exiles in all of those. Our first identity is with the King of the universe, not any country or nationality or political party or governmental regime.
0 x
Almighty, most holy God
Faithful through the ages
Almighty, most holy Lord
Glorious, almighty God
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23806
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: Piper on Patriotism in Church

Post by Josh »

I would describe Piper as a Reformed Baptist, which has many elements of Calvinism in it.

I have noticed that a lot of conservative Anabaptists seem very attracted to Piper and are generally moving in a direction of eventually becoming Reformed Baptists. At the end of the day, make no mistake: Piper has absolutely no qualms about serving in the military or picking up a gun and shooting someone if you can justify it in the name of defending your nation, yourself, or your family.
0 x
joshuabgood
Posts: 2815
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:23 pm
Affiliation: BMA

Re: Piper on Patriotism in Church

Post by joshuabgood »

Josh wrote:I would describe Piper as a Reformed Baptist, which has many elements of Calvinism in it.

I have noticed that a lot of conservative Anabaptists seem very attracted to Piper and are generally moving in a direction of eventually becoming Reformed Baptists. At the end of the day, make no mistake: Piper has absolutely no qualms about serving in the military or picking up a gun and shooting someone if you can justify it in the name of defending your nation, yourself, or your family.
Pretty much...though he is more reserved about it than the southern baptists (with a small "s").
0 x
MattY
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 5:36 pm
Location: Ohio
Affiliation: Beachy
Contact:

Re: Piper on Patriotism in Church

Post by MattY »

Josh wrote:I would describe Piper as a Reformed Baptist, which has many elements of Calvinism in it.

I have noticed that a lot of conservative Anabaptists seem very attracted to Piper and are generally moving in a direction of eventually becoming Reformed Baptists. At the end of the day, make no mistake: Piper has absolutely no qualms about serving in the military or picking up a gun and shooting someone if you can justify it in the name of defending your nation, yourself, or your family.
It's true that Piper doesn't take the non resistant position on war or self-defense. But, two things. First, the underlying (doctrinal) principles he embraces tend to point in that direction. Covenant theology, on the other hand, usually rejects two-kingdom theology and as a logical consequence of its flat-Bible, continuity-stressing approach, historically called for union of church and state with the civil aspects of the Mosaic law to be still enforced by government, just like in the OT. Others might accuse him or people like him of being influenced by Anabaptist or dualistic (two-kingdom) thinking. That's one reason I said he's close. (Of course he would have to change the principles involved in the practical application of these teachings). Second, I don't think it's true that he has "no qualms" about killing in self-defense. I think this link suggests he has some qualms about it:
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/guns-and-martyrdom
Noël and I watched Beyond Gates of Splendor, the documentary version of End of the Spear, the story of the martyrdom of Jim Elliot, Peter Fleming, Ed McCully, Roger Youderian, and Nate Saint in Ecuador in 1956. That same day we heard that the Supreme Court decided in favor of the right of Americans to keep firearms at home for self-defense.

Here’s the connection. The missionaries had guns when they were speared to death. One of them shot the gun into the air, it appears, as he was killed, rather than shooting the natives. They had agreed to do this. The reason was simple and staggeringly Christlike:

The natives are not ready for heaven. We are.

I suspect the same could be said for almost anyone who breaks into my house. There are other reasons why I have never owned a firearm and do not have one in my house. But that reason moves me deeply. I hope you don’t use your economic stimulus check to buy a gun. Better to find some missionaries like this and support them.
That sounds like an application of "love your enemies" to me, and while he may not be consistent about it or take a firm stand like an Anabaptist would, I do at least appreciate that he said those things.
0 x
Almighty, most holy God
Faithful through the ages
Almighty, most holy Lord
Glorious, almighty God
Post Reply