Examples of legalistic traditions in charismatic circles

[RZehr]

Maybe it will be helpful to share what we think it means in our own understanding. Is there an official definition?

I always believed it to mean a form of certain practices that are believed to be required - in "addition" to salvation by Grace through faith- I do believe "Repent and be baptized is what Christ taught for salvation. When I hear legalistic in my mind it means "plus" other requirements that are extra Biblical. Much like the pharisees.

Where would obedience fit in all this?
This afternoon I had an attorney tell me that he thinks "as long as a person believes in the Trinity, and the Ten Commandments, and the forgiveness of sins, and grace instead of works, then you're probably going to be fine".

I think obedience is important as a believer.
As I said I believe "repent and be baptized" would mean what? Repenting of sin)disobedience, right,?

It is obedience to repent and be baptized. But there are other things in the NT too that we are told to do beyond that. And to just give mental acquiescence to a list of correct doctrines is not all there is to following Jesus.

I'm not saying that this is all that you believe - in fact it sounds like this is not what you believe or practice. But I didn't see it come through in your post.

[Valerie]

Where would obedience fit in all this?
This afternoon I had an attorney tell me that he thinks "as long as a person believes in the Trinity, and the Ten Commandments, and the forgiveness of sins, and grace instead of works, then you're probably going to be fine".

I think obedience is important as a believer.
As I said I believe "repent and be baptized" would mean what? Repenting of sin)disobedience, right,?

It is obedience to repent and be baptized. But there are other things in the NT too that we are told to do beyond that. And to just give mental acquiescence to a list of correct doctrines is not all there is to following Jesus.

I'm not saying that this is all that you believe - in fact it sounds like this is not what you believe or practice. But I didn't see it come through in your post.

Well I think I conveyed "extra Biblical" requirements as legalism. That's how I see it. The law was a tutor to salvation by Grace through faith- but it is a life of repentance for His mercies are new every morning! The parable Jesus told of the pharisee and the publican conveys the difference ,{my understanding)

So what is your understanding of legalism?

[Neto]

I don't think this really had to do with my relationship with "charismaticism", but when, a bit over two years after I finished my Missions degree and I decided to cut off my afro, I was still regularly corresponding with the last Missions Department Head at the Bible college, and when I mentioned what I was doing, and why, she sent a letter of extreme caution, and told me that she would be praying for me, that I would turn back away from legalism. (The reason I had at that time for cutting off the long hair was not related to any conviction that long hair was wrong - I didn't have that yet. My reasoning was based on the injunction in Scripture to "be subject to the Elders". That was my only reason, and I was actually reluctant to do it, because I was convinced that I would loose any "right to be heard" by the "left-over hippie" drug users I worked with at the time. Yeah, they were sort of put off at first, but after they saw that my attitude toward them had not changed, everything went on as before. (I would also say that it probably didn't really help, either. It was merely a neutral thing. Could I have started on a new job, with a bunch of people I'd never met before, and "gained a hearing" with them? I do not know, but I do think it would have been more difficult, more of an initial barrier to overcome. But I don't really know, and never will.)

So that started a time when I got so tired of people thinking that I was a "legalist", right from before we had ever even talked together, that I started off in those first conversations with something like "Hi, I'm Ernie, and I'm a legalist." An odd thing happened. These people, who had probably been thinking that already, suddenly wanted to explore whether I really was a legalist. So they started asking probing questions, and by the end of that first meeting, they were trying to convince me that I actually was NOT a legalist. (I'm reminded of how one of the mechanics at the auto dealership where my dad worked dealt with irate customers who started off with a long diatribe about how terrible their car was. He agreed with them, and started in saying all sorts of bad things about that particular model, and also specifically about that person's car. Pretty soon the customer had had enough of this guy "Putting down my car" that they switched sides. What do they call that? Reverse psychology?)

So I think this lends credence to what Josh is saying above. The concept of what a 'legalist' is often is a rather muddy idea, usually tied to the speaker themself as the reference point.

So, everyone who lives by some rules that I do not ascribe to is a legalist. And everyone who who doesn't ascribe to the "guidelines" that I live by, those people are "liberals". I do claim to be a Biblicist, but that can also be tricked out to end up at this same place. I need to be honest with the Scripture, and not play mind-tricks with myself, finding support for my own ideas, and those of my congregation or group, where an honest reading of Scripture will not justify the position I want to uphold. It's a different topic, but ethnocentrism works the same way, and it can be helpful for the serious Bible student to read sociological case studies, and make this type of comparisons.

EDIT:
I see the question Valerie has posted here - What is legalism to 'you''?
This wasn't posed to me, but since I have sort of touched on it, I'll throw in a short answer. To me, legalism is thinking that there is anything at all that I can do that will make me 'more deserving' of God's grace. God is pleased with obedience, but that doesn't make me "more deserving".

[HondurasKeiser]

I think I see 3 facets to legalism. One is something like Neto said "following rules in order to earn or feel deserving of God's grace." the other is something like "obedience or rule following as replacement for a love of and devotion to Jesus". The third would come close to the first, "being obedient in order to gain God's favor and blessings". I've witnessed and heard this third facet of legalism in many charismatic/Pentecostal/evangelical settings here in Central America. It often sounds like: "In order to receive the blessings God has for you/unlock the promises God has made to you/experience healing - You must do XYZ" Often that XYZ involves releasing yourself to Spiritual encounters in the middle of a service. ex.: speaking in tongues, being slain in the spirit, crying, raising hands, etc.

[Neto]

I think I see 3 facets to legalism. One is something like Neto said "following rules in order to earn or feel deserving of God's grace." the other is something like "obedience or rule following as replacement for a love of and devotion to Jesus". The third would come close to the first, "being obedient in order to gain God's favor and blessings". I've witnessed and heard this third facet of legalism in many charismatic/Pentecostal/evangelical settings here in Central America. It often sounds like: "In order to receive the blessings God has for you/unlock the promises God has made to you/experience healing - You must do XYZ" Often that XYZ involves releasing yourself to Spiritual encounters in the middle of a service. ex.: speaking in tongues, being slain in the spirit, crying, raising hands, etc.

Another I've heard is "Obedience to MAINTAIN my salvation." That is, "I am saved by God's grace alone, through faith. But I need to do these certain things in order to earn a 'keeping salvation'." (This is not the exact wording as I heard it. Sorry, I cannot recall exactly how it was said.)

[Soloist]

Is legalism a salvation issue?

We venture into a orthodox issue confronting a orthopraxy issue.