Examples of legalistic traditions in charismatic circles

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HondurasKeiser
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Re: Examples of legalistic traditions in charismatic circles

Post by HondurasKeiser »

Josh wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 7:55 am
I guess I would call what you are talking about as one's spirituality based on certain ways they believe and practise their beliefs. To me, legalism is more a trait that some of the most conservative forms of Christianity fall into that requires very spelled out ways of believing and strict living requirements.
Thanks for sharing your perspective, Sudsy, and I see something interesting here.

“Legalism” is a term reserved for criticising people who are more conservative. That seems to literally be all it is. The fact there are very legalistic structures inside charismatic circles doesn’t matter - well, unless you’re like an old friend of mine who grew up in such circles, and now claims she grew up with just legalism and works (she identifies as lgbt/nonbinary these days and is very big into “grace”).

This means accusations of “legalism” really are just a way to say that another person is more conservative than I am, and I don’t like it. It has no substance at all as to whether someone believes in salvation via faith and grace, and so on.
I want to push back, if ever so slightly, on the bolded part. Growing up as I did, in a charismatic-lite LMC church in the 80's-00's; I never got the sense that the epithet of "legalism" was thrown at conservatives for being conservative as such. Indeed, our church was almost uniformly, theologically conservative and held on to some traditional Mennonite positions related to women in leadership, divorce and remarriage, and church discipline. When certain folk, often those from a Mennonite background and raised in LMC/FMC settings in the 50's & 60's, used the term legalism; they meant traditions and rules and rituals that they felt, were deadening, held back the Spirit and kept NMB folk from being able to fully join our community. Their aversion to acapella hymn singing fit then with that analysis.

I think they were ultimately wrong and the tragic trajectory our church took can, in large part, be laid at their "fleeing of legalism" and embracing fad after fad simply because it was new. To your original point, their pursuit of newness because it felt like "being led by the Spirit" became our tradition, a deadening one, and one that turned many of the young people off to Christianity altogether, drove them toward High Church traditions or, in the case of a few of us, drove us towards a fuller Anabaptism.

My church's story is emblematic of something I've been reading the past 2 weeks. If I could put a title to the various essays I've been reading it might be something like: "What happened to Evangelicalism?". Something I read yesterday in Hedgehog Review seemed to really jibe with your analysis and my own home Church's history:
Evangelicalism is one example of such a flood. And the conditions that caused this deluge are the distinct set of products that make up “American culture,” including especially secularization, consumerism, and economic trends that have driven religion into the sphere of the marketplace—and into a condition wherein religious beliefs are valued for their cultural relevance. The phenomenon we call evangelicalism, in short, cannot be extricated from American religiosity.

Put another way, evangelicalism is the form the Christian religion tends to take within modern American culture. It is impossible to be an American Christian without being heavily influenced by evangelicalism—I would even say that it is nearly impossible to be a white, American Christian without being an evangelical. This is why even many who strenuously protest again the shape of contemporary evangelicalism—criticizing, for example, its penchant for toxic masculinity or white Christian nationalism—still often benefit from and unwittingly perpetuate its existence. As the proliferation of the so-called “ex-evangelical” online community shows, leaving evangelicalism isn’t always as easy it looks—even when you are keenly engaged in the process of religious deconstruction.

That’s not to say that evangelical is a static identity. Because it is so easily influenced by popular culture, evangelicalism readily adapts to the wider scene, but we can identify shifts in it that each remain identifiably and largely the same even as they take shape in opposition to a previous iteration of the identity. This, again, is because evangelicalism is not a form of voluntary association—like a political party, a social organization, or even another sort of religious institution like the Roman Catholic Church. As historian Molly Worthen argued in her 2013 book Apostles of Reason, evangelicalism has always suffered from a “crisis of authority”—and abortive attempts on the part of pastors, intellectuals, and denominational institutions to insulate the movement from the winds of change. Freed from institutional trappings and guardrails, evangelicalism is free to change and adapt but remains always a deeply cultural phenomenon.
In our Church, in the name of freedom, we threw over much of our Mennonite tradition, rules and culture and became slaves to the whims and reactions to American culture.
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Josh
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Re: Examples of legalistic traditions in charismatic circles

Post by Josh »

I want to push back, if ever so slightly, on the bolded part. Growing up as I did, in a charismatic-lite LMC church in the 80's-00's; I never got the sense that the epithet of "legalism" was thrown at conservatives for being conservative as such. Indeed, our church was almost uniformly, theologically conservative and held on to some traditional Mennonite positions related to women in leadership, divorce and remarriage, and church discipline.
Therein lies the rub: the positions I hold aren't legalism; they're biblical! The person who is more conservative than me is in dead works, religion, works, and legalism.

The person who is less conservative than I am (perhaps someone who wants women in ministry, or even open to lgbt things) is someone who has abandoned the biblical faith, the Bible itself, and maybe isn't even Christian anymore.
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Valerie
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Re: Examples of legalistic traditions in charismatic circles

Post by Valerie »

It's time for a good definition of "legalism" to be explained here-
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Valerie
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Re: Examples of legalistic traditions in charismatic circles

Post by Valerie »

Josh wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 3:03 pm
I want to push back, if ever so slightly, on the bolded part. Growing up as I did, in a charismatic-lite LMC church in the 80's-00's; I never got the sense that the epithet of "legalism" was thrown at conservatives for being conservative as such. Indeed, our church was almost uniformly, theologically conservative and held on to some traditional Mennonite positions related to women in leadership, divorce and remarriage, and church discipline.
Therein lies the rub: the positions I hold aren't legalism; they're biblical! The person who is more conservative than me is in dead works, religion, works, and legalism.

The person who is less conservative than I am (perhaps someone who wants women in ministry, or even open to lgbt things) is someone who has abandoned the biblical faith, the Bible itself, and maybe isn't even Christian anymore.
I understand what you're saying. Most of the decades I was in more Charismatic churches I glossed over or even misunderstood certain Scriptures. I was taught "we are free in Christ" who is not concerned with outward appearance. It was the Anabaptists in a variety of fellowships and publications that upended my eyes to this. I made changes therefore outwardly as I repented for not being obedient in these areas. As a result of this all but a couple of women in my Charismatic Church distanced themselves and we're suddenly uncomfortable. Knowing how modern Christians think, I understood why. It also taught me what it feels like to love the Lord but be labeled as trying to be accepted by him based on outward obedience. Calling into question then if I understood grace.
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Sudsy
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Re: Examples of legalistic traditions in charismatic circles

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 3:17 pm It's time for a good definition of "legalism" to be explained here-
And what is the definition you are going with ?
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Valerie
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Re: Examples of legalistic traditions in charismatic circles

Post by Valerie »

Sudsy wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 6:00 pm
Valerie wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 3:17 pm It's time for a good definition of "legalism" to be explained here-
And what is the definition you are going with ?
Maybe it will be helpful to share what we think it means in our own understanding. Is there an official definition?

I always believed it to mean a form of certain practices that are believed to be required - in "addition" to salvation by Grace through faith- I do believe "Repent and be baptized is what Christ taught for salvation. When I hear legalistic in my mind it means "plus" other requirements that are extra Biblical. Much like the pharisees.
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RZehr
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Re: Examples of legalistic traditions in charismatic circles

Post by RZehr »

Valerie wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 6:23 pm
Sudsy wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 6:00 pm
Valerie wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 3:17 pm It's time for a good definition of "legalism" to be explained here-
And what is the definition you are going with ?
Maybe it will be helpful to share what we think it means in our own understanding. Is there an official definition?

I always believed it to mean a form of certain practices that are believed to be required - in "addition" to salvation by Grace through faith- I do believe "Repent and be baptized is what Christ taught for salvation. When I hear legalistic in my mind it means "plus" other requirements that are extra Biblical. Much like the pharisees.
Where would obedience fit in all this?
This afternoon I had an attorney tell me that he thinks "as long as a person believes in the Trinity, and the Ten Commandments, and the forgiveness of sins, and grace instead of works, then you're probably going to be fine".
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Examples of legalistic traditions in charismatic circles

Post by ken_sylvania »

RZehr wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 6:39 pm
Valerie wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 6:23 pm
Sudsy wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 6:00 pm

And what is the definition you are going with ?
Maybe it will be helpful to share what we think it means in our own understanding. Is there an official definition?

I always believed it to mean a form of certain practices that are believed to be required - in "addition" to salvation by Grace through faith- I do believe "Repent and be baptized is what Christ taught for salvation. When I hear legalistic in my mind it means "plus" other requirements that are extra Biblical. Much like the pharisees.
Where would obedience fit in all this?
This afternoon I had an attorney tell me that he thinks "as long as a person believes in the Trinity, and the Ten Commandments, and the forgiveness of sins, and grace instead of works, then you're probably going to be fine".
That's all he takes with him to the courtroom?
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Valerie
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Re: Examples of legalistic traditions in charismatic circles

Post by Valerie »

RZehr wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 6:39 pm
Valerie wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 6:23 pm
Sudsy wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 6:00 pm

And what is the definition you are going with ?
Maybe it will be helpful to share what we think it means in our own understanding. Is there an official definition?

I always believed it to mean a form of certain practices that are believed to be required - in "addition" to salvation by Grace through faith- I do believe "Repent and be baptized is what Christ taught for salvation. When I hear legalistic in my mind it means "plus" other requirements that are extra Biblical. Much like the pharisees.
Where would obedience fit in all this?
This afternoon I had an attorney tell me that he thinks "as long as a person believes in the Trinity, and the Ten Commandments, and the forgiveness of sins, and grace instead of works, then you're probably going to be fine".
I think obedience is important as a believer.
As I said I believe "repent and be baptized" would mean what? Repenting of sin)disobedience, right,?
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RZehr
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Re: Examples of legalistic traditions in charismatic circles

Post by RZehr »

ken_sylvania wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 6:56 pm
RZehr wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 6:39 pm
Valerie wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 6:23 pm

Maybe it will be helpful to share what we think it means in our own understanding. Is there an official definition?

I always believed it to mean a form of certain practices that are believed to be required - in "addition" to salvation by Grace through faith- I do believe "Repent and be baptized is what Christ taught for salvation. When I hear legalistic in my mind it means "plus" other requirements that are extra Biblical. Much like the pharisees.
Where would obedience fit in all this?
This afternoon I had an attorney tell me that he thinks "as long as a person believes in the Trinity, and the Ten Commandments, and the forgiveness of sins, and grace instead of works, then you're probably going to be fine".
That's all he takes with him to the courtroom?
I don't know! I didn't see him there. I think he meant fine with God or go to Heaven when you die.
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