Experts Confirm Genesis 19, Biblical City Destroyed by Explosion 1,000 Times Larger Than Atomic Bomb

[JohnHurt]

Where are the verses in the Bible that tell us not to find water using a metal coat hanger as it comes from the Devil?

And please remember Deuteronomy 4:2:

(2) Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

So go ahead. I have answered your questions. Now answer mine.

Where is finding water with a coat hanger prohibited in the Bible?

Thanks,

John

Metal coat hangers aren’t mentioned in the Bible. If though you use them for divination, such as finding water or any other things claimed, I would refer you to the earlier passage I quoted to you. I think I will agree to disagree with you and I hope for your sake that it’s not witchcraft.
I still stand by my statement.

Dowsing is a type of divination employed in attempts to locate ground water, buried metals or ores, gemstones, oil, claimed radiations (radiesthesia),[1] gravesites,[2] malign "earth vibrations"[3] and many other objects and materials without the use of a scientific apparatus. It is also known as divining (especially in water divining),[4] doodlebugging[5] (particularly in the United States, in searching for petroleum or treasure)[6] or (when searching for water) water finding, or water witching (in the United States).

Please note Wiki thinks it’s divination.

So it wasn't in the Bible after all. Your definition of "divination" comes from man, not God.

You could not find it anywhere in the Bible.

There is not a definition of witchcraft in the Bible that applies to dowsing. I supplied all of the definitions of witchcraft and divination from the original Hebrew words in the Bible, and none of them apply to dowsing.

Somebody in the Catholic church made up this superstition about dowsing for water being from the Devil. The amazing part is that anyone would still believe this to be true.

I don't think Anton LeVey's "Church of Satan" practices "dowsing for water wells" as one of their "dark arts", or is involved in well drilling in any way.

Do you think the Satanists really use dowsing for water with coat hangers to show their allegiance to their "Dark Lord"? I could not find them in the Yellow Pages next to "Well Drillers".

Or is the idea that "dowsing is from the devil" a Catholic superstition that rests on the same level of gullibility as to believe that the "Basilica della Santa Casa" or "Holy House" of the Virgin Mary, was picked up by angels and taken from Nazareth to Loreto, Italy, with the "Holy House" having stopovers in two other cities before arriving at it current location, all courtesy of "United Angel Airlines":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica_della_Santa_Casa
I will remember them the next time I decide to move, and don't want to leave home, but take it with me.

I cannot believe people are this gullible.

If you believe dowsing is from the devil, then why not believe the Holy House flew by Angels from Palestine to Italy?

If you are skeptical about dowsing even working in the first place, then more power to you. But just because someone tells you dowsing is from the devil doesn't make it so.

The other thing that blows my mind is how someone can take two passages (Hosea 4:12, and 2nd Kings 17:17) to make their point, and then when you ask them about the prohibitions against eating unclean food in Leviticus 11, they will claim this is all "Old Testament" and no longer relevant.

It is "pick and choose", or "Cafeteria Christianity". Yes, i will have two scoops of Hosea, but hold the Leviticus.

I think I need a tour guide to find out what is relevant in the Old Testament and what isn't. Oh, but didn't Christ say that "not one jot or tittle will pass as long as heaven and earth are here"? (Matt 5:17-20). Well, yeah, but Christ also said you could only have eternal life by keeping the 10 Commandments (Matt 19:16-19), and most people don't believe that either. They say Christ was under an obsolete "old" Covenant or Dispensation, take your pick, and they only follow the parts of what Christ said that they like and reject the rest, just like they pick and choose the parts of the Old Testament that they like and refuse the parts that make them uncomfortable.

That is how Hosea 4:12 applies to dowsing. It is grabbing a straw out of a hay pile you have already thrown away.

And if you are going to quote Hosea 4:12 against holding a stick in your hand:

(12) My people ask counsel at their stocks, and their staff declareth unto them:

Then you might consider how Moses used the rod of Aaron before Pharaoh to show the power of God (Ex 7L9), how he parted the Red sea with a wooden rod (Ex 14:16), and how he struck the rock with this same rod to produce water instead of talking to it, and was condemned by God. (Num 20:8-12)

Moses used his wooden rod for both good, and sometimes not as good.

It is how you use a coat hanger that makes it evil, and not the coat hanger, the rod, the stick or even the water that is found.

Is finding water for people to drink evil? No.

Is telling people that "dowsing is from the devil" a Catholic superstition? Yes.

Does dowsing even work? Yes for some people, no for others.

why do some people still believe in dowsing? Because it does work for some people. And if I told you how the dowser found out how deep the water was, you would not believe me, as I can't believe what I saw, either.

Finally, does this thread have anything to do with Genesis 19? Not anymore.

[Soloist]

John, maybe if I thought you were seriously considering what is said to you I would continue but at some point a person just stops wasting time.

You have made it clear your position and I’ve made mine clear.

[Neto]

But water witchers can find buried pipes too. At least that is what I’ve heard.
So it’s more than just tell someone where to dig a well when the water table is everywhere.

Just looking at this discussion for the first time, and wouldn't have expected it to be about how to find underground water sources.....

A former fellow missionary was able to do this. He was our maintenance guy for a good part of our years there in Brazil, and he was able to pinpoint the location of the water pipes when an area needed to be dug up for one reason or another. He also located the spot where we hit water out in the village, and that was after three failed attempts, just digging where we actually wanted the well to be. We didn't have the equipment to pump more than 20 gallons a minute, but pumped at that rate for at least 3 hours straight, and it didn't draw down. (For perspective, 5 gallons a minute out in western Oklahoma, and at a depth of 180 to 200 or more feet down, is considered a very good well.)

And the water table isn't necessarily closer to the surface in low lying areas. After finishing the initial drilling there, we let it siphon water out for a few hours, but that was just a 1" pipe. (Going down the hill behind our house.) Pumping at 20 gal/min was a 1 1/2 or 2 inch pipe. The well is 26 meters deep, around 80 feet - hand drilled.

A friend of mine from western NY, they had a well on top of a hill near the house, and had running water in the house - all siphon fed.

But what I would like an answer to is this:
1.) Is good uncontaminated water good? Is it a blessing, or a curse?
2.) Does Satan ever do anything that is good? (Give a Scripture text please.)

Hint: I have read the entire Bible through with this one question in mind. I have never found anything at all. Nor have I ever seen any good come of the works of Satan. The closest I can come is how the shamans used to 'heal' people. But the Banawa explanation for how that works demonstrates that 1.) it isn't real healing, because it is just removing a curse, and 2.) doing this type of 'healing' INCREASES the control of Satan over the people, and furthermore 3.) The shaman does this by removing an evil spirit from the body of the sick person (who was sick because either he, or another shaman had put a curse on them), and then uses the power of this evil spirit to do curses on other people. Essentially, that is where he gets his power to 'heal'.

My point: Simply demonizing things which we do not understand is not honest, nor is it God-honoring. All anyone has to do to change my mind on this is to show me one single good thing that Satan has ever done. Water is a symbol of life in Scripture, especially 'living water', which in its non-figurative sense means "underground running water", which is what we hit there in the village. If we attribute good pure water to the work of Satan, we have corrupted a major symbol of God's blessing.

[Soloist]

Water is water.

It really depends on how we perceive good. Satan offers things which might seem good to those without foresight of his tricks. It says quite plainly

2Co 11:13  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

[RZehr]

But water witchers can find buried pipes too. At least that is what I’ve heard.
So it’s more than just tell someone where to dig a well when the water table is everywhere.

Just looking at this discussion for the first time, and wouldn't have expected it to be about how to find underground water sources.....

A former fellow missionary was able to do this. He was our maintenance guy for a good part of our years there in Brazil, and he was able to pinpoint the location of the water pipes when an area needed to be dug up for one reason or another. He also located the spot where we hit water out in the village, and that was after three failed attempts, just digging where we actually wanted the well to be. We didn't have the equipment to pump more than 20 gallons a minute, but pumped at that rate for at least 3 hours straight, and it didn't draw down. (For perspective, 5 gallons a minute out in western Oklahoma, and at a depth of 180 to 200 or more feet down, is considered a very good well.)

And the water table isn't necessarily closer to the surface in low lying areas. After finishing the initial drilling there, we let it siphon water out for a few hours, but that was just a 1" pipe. (Going down the hill behind our house.) Pumping at 20 gal/min was a 1 1/2 or 2 inch pipe. The well is 26 meters deep, around 80 feet - hand drilled.

A friend of mine from western NY, they had a well on top of a hill near the house, and had running water in the house - all siphon fed.

But what I would like an answer to is this:
1.) Is good uncontaminated water good? Is it a blessing, or a curse?
2.) Does Satan ever do anything that is good? (Give a Scripture text please.)

Hint: I have read the entire Bible through with this one question in mind. I have never found anything at all. Nor have I ever seen any good come of the works of Satan. The closest I can come is how the shamans used to 'heal' people. But the Banawa explanation for how that works demonstrates that 1.) it isn't real healing, because it is just removing a curse, and 2.) doing this type of 'healing' INCREASES the control of Satan over the people, and furthermore 3.) The shaman does this by removing an evil spirit from the body of the sick person (who was sick because either he, or another shaman had put a curse on them), and then uses the power of this evil spirit to do curses on other people. Essentially, that is where he gets his power to 'heal'.

My point: Simply demonizing things which we do not understand is not honest, nor is it God-honoring. All anyone has to do to change my mind on this is to show me one single good thing that Satan has ever done. Water is a symbol of life in Scripture, especially 'living water', which in its non-figurative sense means "underground running water", which is what we hit there in the village. If we attribute good pure water to the work of Satan, we have corrupted a major symbol of God's blessing.

Water is good, yes. Just like food and raiment is good. It is the method of obtaining that is restricted. A thief can acquire food and raiment by stealing, but we Christians are told not to do that. Same with the water divination. Water is good, but like stealing, divination is not acceptable for the Christian to practice.

Do you believe that any divination is sinful? Would you support an Haitian who went to a witch doctor to divine other good things beyond just water? How much divination are you comfortable with? Divination is also used to find far more than water. Is it okay to use it to find a gas pipe or gold too? What about a buried electric line?

To use a similar deductive reasoning as “water is good, so the devil must not have to do with the locating of it”, consider this: God doesn’t lie, so water witching should always be accurate”. But we know it is not always accurate.

[Ken]

But what I would like an answer to is this:
1.) Is good uncontaminated water good? Is it a blessing, or a curse?

It is science. Water is a natural resource. And while we live on a water planet, there is a finite amount of liquid fresh water on earth that is available for human use.

The hydrological cycles on earth naturally clean and redistribute the water on earth through physical processes like evaporation, condensation, percolation, and biological processes like decomposition. Whether you believe this is simply nature or God’s design is neither here nor there for this discussion. What it means is that we should not pollute, degrade, and waste the finite resource of fresh water we have available. We should use science and not witchcraft to understand how our aquifers, snowpacks, and hydrological cycles work. And we should also use science to understand the limits of that resource and the boundary between sustainable and unsustainable use.

No one really permanently owns a quantity of water. It is constantly cycling through our biosphere and has been so for millions of years (or however long you believe the earth has existed). The water molecules you drink today might have watered a farmers crops 100 years ago, might have been home to a school of fish 500 years ago, and might have been dinosaur pee 100 million years ago.

How we ALLOCATE the temporary use of this finite resource among people and the various uses in our society is more a question of politics, law, and justice. Although since water is necessary for both life and the production of wealth, and has been so since the dawn of time, the Bible might give us guidelines for how to do that in an ethical, moral, and Godly or Christian manner.

[Neto]

But water witchers can find buried pipes too. At least that is what I’ve heard.
So it’s more than just tell someone where to dig a well when the water table is everywhere.

Just looking at this discussion for the first time, and wouldn't have expected it to be about how to find underground water sources.....

A former fellow missionary was able to do this. He was our maintenance guy for a good part of our years there in Brazil, and he was able to pinpoint the location of the water pipes when an area needed to be dug up for one reason or another. He also located the spot where we hit water out in the village, and that was after three failed attempts, just digging where we actually wanted the well to be. We didn't have the equipment to pump more than 20 gallons a minute, but pumped at that rate for at least 3 hours straight, and it didn't draw down. (For perspective, 5 gallons a minute out in western Oklahoma, and at a depth of 180 to 200 or more feet down, is considered a very good well.)

And the water table isn't necessarily closer to the surface in low lying areas. After finishing the initial drilling there, we let it siphon water out for a few hours, but that was just a 1" pipe. (Going down the hill behind our house.) Pumping at 20 gal/min was a 1 1/2 or 2 inch pipe. The well is 26 meters deep, around 80 feet - hand drilled.

A friend of mine from western NY, they had a well on top of a hill near the house, and had running water in the house - all siphon fed.

But what I would like an answer to is this:
1.) Is good uncontaminated water good? Is it a blessing, or a curse?
2.) Does Satan ever do anything that is good? (Give a Scripture text please.)

Hint: I have read the entire Bible through with this one question in mind. I have never found anything at all. Nor have I ever seen any good come of the works of Satan. The closest I can come is how the shamans used to 'heal' people. But the Banawa explanation for how that works demonstrates that 1.) it isn't real healing, because it is just removing a curse, and 2.) doing this type of 'healing' INCREASES the control of Satan over the people, and furthermore 3.) The shaman does this by removing an evil spirit from the body of the sick person (who was sick because either he, or another shaman had put a curse on them), and then uses the power of this evil spirit to do curses on other people. Essentially, that is where he gets his power to 'heal'.

My point: Simply demonizing things which we do not understand is not honest, nor is it God-honoring. All anyone has to do to change my mind on this is to show me one single good thing that Satan has ever done. Water is a symbol of life in Scripture, especially 'living water', which in its non-figurative sense means "underground running water", which is what we hit there in the village. If we attribute good pure water to the work of Satan, we have corrupted a major symbol of God's blessing.

Water is good, yes. Just like food and raiment is good. It is the method of obtaining that is restricted. A thief can acquire food and raiment by stealing, but we Christians are told not to do that. Same with the water divination. Water is good, but like stealing, divination is not acceptable for the Christian to practice.

Do you believe that any divination is sinful? Would you support an Haitian who went to a witch doctor to divine other good things beyond just water? How much divination are you comfortable with? Divination is also used to find far more than water. Is it okay to use it to find a gas pipe or gold too? What about a buried electric line?

To use a similar deductive reasoning as “water is good, so the devil must not have to do with the locating of it”, consider this: God doesn’t lie, so water witching should always be accurate”. But we know it is not always accurate.

People who think it is "of the devil" call it divination. I cannot confirm that it is the first, so I cannot consider it the second. My point stands, that I have never seen or heard of anything good that the devil did, whether it is stealing, or not. He cannot even steal something good for anyone.

I also didn't say that finding a water source in this way is a "spiritual gift", either. If it were, then one would expect that it would only work for believers.

I have had personal experience with only three people who have done it. Two were Christian missionaries. The third I actually didn't ever meet - I was out in the field plowing when he came, and went. I only heard the results from my uncle, whose house the well was being drilled for. That case was in Western Oklahoma, where you certainly cannot just drill anywhere and get water. But there WAS water where he indicated, and his caution about it being salty farther down was also true. (That part may have been more so just experience. I don't know, but he used a silver dollar on his forked stick to test again. That's the only time I've ever heard of doing that.)

Now if it's all just a fake, with results that are only due to experience or guess-work, then I can see where doing it while also attributing it to Satan would be blasphemous, because all good things come from the Father, not the devil. I do not have an explanation for it. And I have tried it, but the copper wires don't do anything at all in my hands. Things like magnets have now been explained scientifically, although I couldn't explain it myself. I wonder what people thought, when they first found a magnetic rock. (Sure, Adam might have known about it, but sin degrades people's knowledge, so later on, someone somewhere found one, and had no idea why it acted the way it did.)

[Neto]

But what I would like an answer to is this:
1.) Is good uncontaminated water good? Is it a blessing, or a curse?

It is science. Water is a natural resource. And while we live on a water planet, there is a finite amount of liquid fresh water on earth that is available for human use.

The hydrological cycles on earth naturally clean and redistribute the water on earth through physical processes like evaporation, condensation, percolation, and biological processes like decomposition. Whether you believe this is simply nature or God’s design is neither here nor there for this discussion. What it means is that we should not pollute, degrade, and waste the finite resource of fresh water we have available. We should use science and not witchcraft to understand how our aquifers, snowpacks, and hydrological cycles work. And we should also use science to understand the limits of that resource and the boundary between sustainable and unsustainable use.

No one really permanently owns a quantity of water. It is constantly cycling through our biosphere and has been so for millions of years (or however long you believe the earth has existed). The water molecules you drink today might have watered a farmers crops 100 years ago, might have been home to a school of fish 500 years ago, and might have been dinosaur pee 100 million years ago.

How we ALLOCATE the temporary use of this finite resource among people and the various uses in our society is more a question of politics, law, and justice. Although since water is necessary for both life and the production of wealth, and has been so since the dawn of time, the Bible might give us guidelines for how to do that in an ethical, moral, and Godly or Christian manner.

God is the creator, the one who made not only water, but also science. Good things, like blessings, can be misused or wasted. Good things can be hoarded or shared. Water can be give to the thirsty to save their lives, or be used to drown them. Science can also be used to save, or to kill.

[JohnHurt]

Wouldn't accusing Abraham and Isaac of dowsing constitute adding to the written record?

Interestingly enough, all the wells that my father had drilled produced abundant quantities of water without having to drill deep - and he never used dowsing to decide where to drill.

Pure speculation on my part. Like asking who was Cain's wife.

How do you think they did it?

Digging a well by hand is a lot different than digging a bore hole with a machine.

I think they looked at the lay of the land, and dug "in the valley" hoping to find water, just as many thousands of people have done over the years. Sometimes, they went to locations where a previous generation had dug wells and dug out the dirt had been used to fill them in. Yes, certainly more manual labor than digging with a machine, but then even planting and harvesting wheat was more labor intensive then compared with now.

That is a fair statement.

I don't understand why the Philistines or other men in the land could not do the same thing.

[Ken]

Pure speculation on my part. Like asking who was Cain's wife.

How do you think they did it?

Digging a well by hand is a lot different than digging a bore hole with a machine.

I think they looked at the lay of the land, and dug "in the valley" hoping to find water, just as many thousands of people have done over the years. Sometimes, they went to locations where a previous generation had dug wells and dug out the dirt had been used to fill them in. Yes, certainly more manual labor than digging with a machine, but then even planting and harvesting wheat was more labor intensive then compared with now.

That is a fair statement.

I don't understand why the Philistines or other men in the land could not do the same thing.

They could and did.

For example, the ancient Romans, Persians, Egyptians, and Babylonians were far more sophisticated in their water management and technology than anything the Hebrews developed in ancient Israel and Judah. We can still see the aqueducts they built, canals they dug, cisterns they made, and other waterworks they constructed thousands of years later.