Experts Confirm Genesis 19, Biblical City Destroyed by Explosion 1,000 Times Larger Than Atomic Bomb

[Soloist]

I can quote it and I will but I suspect you will discount it.
Hos 4:12  My people ask counsel at their stocks, and their staff declareth unto them: for the spirit of whoredoms hath caused them to err, and they have gone a whoring from under their God.
2Ki 17:17  And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

I am sorry, I cannot find water dowsing in any of these passages.

And if holding a stick is "witchcraft", then you need to explain the staff that Moses held.

As I said.
I’ll answer your further questions if you answer my single question.
How do you determine what is witchcraft?

[JohnHurt]

I can quote it and I will but I suspect you will discount it.
Hos 4:12  My people ask counsel at their stocks, and their staff declareth unto them: for the spirit of whoredoms hath caused them to err, and they have gone a whoring from under their God.
2Ki 17:17  And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

I am sorry, I cannot find water dowsing in any of these passages.

And if holding a stick is "witchcraft", then you need to explain the staff that Moses held.

As I said.
I’ll answer your further questions if you answer my single question.
How do you determine what is witchcraft?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchcraft
Wikipedia states that:

Traditionally, "witchcraft" means the use of magic or supernatural powers to inflict harm or misfortune on others, and this remains the most common and widespread meaning.

I don't see where finding water to drink inflicts harm or misfortune on others. That's One.

In the Bible, the word "witch" is found in Exodus 22:18 and other places. It comes from the word "kashaph" Strongs 3784, which Strongs defines as:

a primitive root; properly, to whisper a spell, i.e. to inchant or practise magic:--sorcerer, (use) witch(-craft).

No, I never saw the dowser whisper a spell, nor did I repeat an incantation when the coat hangers moved in my hands. That's two.

Also in the Bible is the famous "witch of Endor" (1 Sam 28:7-25), a woman who was a necromancer that allowed the living to speak with the dead. This is prohibited by God:

Deut 18:(10) There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,

(11) Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

(12) For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

I never once saw a dowser use any of these prohibited things. Finding water for people to drink has never been prohibited by God. That's three.

The word "divination" in Deut 18:10 is Strongs 7081 "qecem" that Strongs defines as: from 'qacam' (7080); a lot: also divination (including its fee), oracle:--(reward of) divination, divine sentence, witchcraft.

I would suggest that is is casting lots, casting bones, or rolling the dice, and giving an answer in return for a fee.

My dowser never cast a lot, bones, rolled the dice, or even took a fee for his services, so it cannot be "divination". That is four.

Also, Mr. Soloist, remember that I used a coat hanger to find water, and not a wooden stick. So I did not consult a wooden stick to find the water, or even talk to my metal coat hanger. That is five.

So where is it?

Where are the verses in the Bible that tell us not to find water using a metal coat hanger as it comes from the Devil?

And please remember Deuteronomy 4:2:

(2) Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

If you are adding your own prejudices to the Bible, then you are teaching something that is outside of Deuteronomy 4:2.

Christ condemned the Pharisees for adding to their "tradition of the elders" that eating with unwashen hands was a religious sin. Mark 7:1-5. It is not a sin at all, it is a doctrine of men.

Christ condemned them for adding this requirement to the word of God by saying:

Mark 7:(7) Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Adding to the Word of God makes our worship of God vain.

This idea that finding water using a coat hanger is from the devil - this looks to me like it is a commandment of men, and not from God.

But if you have a verse that say otherwise, I am all ears.

Also, if you don't believe in water dowsing, I can accept that position completely. The proof is that dowsing works for a LOT of people, and not whether you believe it or not.

But that is not your position. Your position is that water dowsing is from the devil, and that is something totally different. That statement is hurtful and insulting, and it is not in the Bible.

So go ahead. I have answered your questions. Now answer mine.

Where is finding water with a coat hanger prohibited in the Bible?

Thanks,

John

[Soloist]

Where are the verses in the Bible that tell us not to find water using a metal coat hanger as it comes from the Devil?

And please remember Deuteronomy 4:2:

(2) Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

So go ahead. I have answered your questions. Now answer mine.

Where is finding water with a coat hanger prohibited in the Bible?

Thanks,

John

Metal coat hangers aren’t mentioned in the Bible. If though you use them for divination, such as finding water or any other things claimed, I would refer you to the earlier passage I quoted to you. I think I will agree to disagree with you and I hope for your sake that it’s not witchcraft.
I still stand by my statement.

Dowsing is a type of divination employed in attempts to locate ground water, buried metals or ores, gemstones, oil, claimed radiations (radiesthesia),[1] gravesites,[2] malign "earth vibrations"[3] and many other objects and materials without the use of a scientific apparatus. It is also known as divining (especially in water divining),[4] doodlebugging[5] (particularly in the United States, in searching for petroleum or treasure)[6] or (when searching for water) water finding, or water witching (in the United States).

Please note Wiki thinks it’s divination.

[Soloist]

There is a guide to dowsing from the American society of dowsing.

They list of multiple types of dowsing even of information and openly call it divination. They make a reference to asking permission from “higher power” before you start but they give no identification to the power to ask permission from before doing so.

It’s highly informative but I strongly recommend you are sound in the faith before you read anything related to the occult.

[RZehr]

Is witching for water, aka divination, acknowledged by the dark side to be a power from their domain? If so, that should be considered.
Of course there is pressure for Christians who practice such things to deny that divination is an occult practice because if it is, then Christians shouldn’t do it. And they don’t want to give them up. So we go to great lengths to justify these things, instead of going to great lengths to avoid them. We make allowance for them instead of getting rid of them.

All divination is wrong, doesn’t matter if it is with a wire, stick, black box, pendulum. I have no time for iridology, homeopathy, or muscle testing for the Christian either.

Whether or not any of these things “work” is not evidence that they are from God either.

The Mennonites are from Germany and Central Europe, where these pagan rituals of a green tree, yule log, Santa, reindeer pulling the sleigh of Odin, an egg laying rabbit of fertility that happens on "Easter/Ostara", eating ham at Easter to honor a dead god - these rituals go back to long before the time of Christ, and were never fully eradicated from Central Europe, but were mixed with Christian traditions. So as Mennonites, you have a much harder battle to fight than I do, what with your family, friends and church all following these pagan rituals.

But that dowsing is from the Devil - that must be another tradition from Germany. I know the Catholic church teaches this doctrine.

Might be why the Amish practice so many of these unscientific pagan rituals such as divination, pendulum, black boxes, homeopathy, iridology, and muscle testing.

[RZehr]

I have a colorful book called Pennsylvania Dutch Folklore that is chock full of pagan German superstitions and practices, many of which conservative Mennonites and Amish unfortunately practice. It just goes on and on. Many pow-wow practices. It is stuff that would be perfectly at home with witch doctors.

“For ulcers, boils, and other defects: Take a root of an iron-weed, and tie it around the neck; it cures running ulcers; it also serves against obstructions in the bladder.”

“To cure Epilepsy: Take a turtle dove, cut its throat, and let the person drink the blood.”

“To banish the Whooping cough: Cut three small bunches of hair from the crown of the head of a child that has never seen its father; sew this hair up in an unbleached cloth and hang it around the neck of the child having whooping cough. The thread with which the cloth is sewed must also be unbleached.”

An alternative cure for whooping cough, is found under Home Remedies and Cures instead of under the pow-wow section. It says:
“To cure whooping cough, obtain a piece of bread covered with apple butter from a person who has the same married surname as her maiden name.”
“A tumor can be cured by stroking it with the right hand of a corpse.”
“To repair a hernia get a forged nail, drive it into a piece of wood and keep the wood in a dry place.”

And then we have the hex signs on barns. The book says “They are usually referred to as “Hex-Signs” although some students of the subject will almost violently claim that they are merely decoration.”
“The six-lobed symbol is a patent safeguard against harm, and with seven lobes it is all powerful against evil. A barn with a six pointed star painted on it will protect against lightning and to keep the devil out of the barn a white line should be painted around the door. (devil’s door).”
“Hex signs are not for decoration. Their connection with superstition regarding witchcraft, spells, and ‘hexing’ cannot be in doubt”.

I think today they are merely used for decoration though.

[Soloist]

Wife:
I hope you don't think that Zehr or us are bringing this out as an attack on you. We genuinely would consider it witchcraft, and are just trying to warn you. The dowsers.org website even says that it is used for a lot more than just water (oil, gold, ect), and mentions greek mythology, egyptian, and chinese history of it. I sincerely feel like if it was a gift of the Spirit of God, it wouldn't be so widely used by pagans as well. The greek word Homer uses to describe it has the root meaning of Divining rod.

The historical records of Greece refer to dowsing and the art was widely practiced on the Island of Crete, as early as 400 BC. Researchers have uncovered evidence that the Pytheon Oracle of Delphi used a pendulum to answer the questions posed by her clients, kings, queens, nobility and military commanders who traveled great distances to confer with her.
(From Dowsers.org a very pro dowsing website)

My grandfather was apparently good at it, and they tried once to teach me, saying the water in the stick would sense the water in the ground. It didn't work, but my grandfather and his boys were also professionally trained well drillers, knowing the geology/ect that would also tell them where to drill. Sometimes the wells were dry, but I don't know if it was better or not back when Grandpa was doing it. He also was a major alcoholic most of his life (like at least 60s or 70s. He died at almost 90), but near the end of his life, he did get clean and seemed to become a Christian, so I will leave God to judge what had been done in ignorance.

Unlike scientific skeptics, many of us don't doubt that there can be power in witchcraft/the occult, but we would question where the power comes from. To say that if it didn't work/wasn't from God, people wouldn't be doing it seems flawed, given that paganism/other religions are still going strong and might even be getting more popular nowadays. I would feel as uncomfortable with dowsing (for water/gold/oil/what have you) as I would with someone swinging a pendulum over my belly to tell me if I'm having a boy or a girl, or with some of the practices Joseph Smith used to write the book of Mormon (literally pulling things out of a hat ect. He actually also used seer stones and might have been a dowser himself, according to Bringham Young University).

It doesn't seem to give any reference to Abraham using a stick to choose a spot for a well, and it certainly seems like God openly spoke to him about having a son, Sodom being destroyed, moving away from Ur, ect, so I don't see why he would need a stick for that. The reference my family liked using was Moses and his rod, but as far as I know, it just talks about God telling him to take his staff and tell a rock to give water. He struck it, which may or may not have been what God wanted him to do, but it never talks about him dowsing with it or digging/drilling a well, so I think it's reading someone's own prejudices into the passage to say that's the same as water dowsing, and I haven't heard any other stories of dowsers having water just gush out of a rock. This is the same staff raised to part the red sea (although God did the parting), and briefly spent time as a snake. Grandpa could never manage that one.

All I'm saying is that you should sincerely think about it and research it yourself. You seem to want to follow God, so it can't hurt to make sure you are not doing something that displeases Him.

[ken_sylvania]

And please remember Deuteronomy 4:2:

(2) Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Wouldn't accusing Abraham and Isaac of dowsing constitute adding to the written record?

Interestingly enough, all the wells that my father had drilled produced abundant quantities of water without having to drill deep - and he never used dowsing to decide where to drill.

[JohnHurt]

And please remember Deuteronomy 4:2:

(2) Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Wouldn't accusing Abraham and Isaac of dowsing constitute adding to the written record?

Interestingly enough, all the wells that my father had drilled produced abundant quantities of water without having to drill deep - and he never used dowsing to decide where to drill.

Pure speculation on my part. Like asking who was Cain's wife.

How do you think they did it?

Digging a well by hand is a lot different than digging a bore hole with a machine.

[ken_sylvania]

And please remember Deuteronomy 4:2:

Wouldn't accusing Abraham and Isaac of dowsing constitute adding to the written record?

Interestingly enough, all the wells that my father had drilled produced abundant quantities of water without having to drill deep - and he never used dowsing to decide where to drill.

Pure speculation on my part. Like asking who was Cain's wife.

How do you think they did it?

Digging a well by hand is a lot different than digging a bore hole with a machine.

I think they looked at the lay of the land, and dug "in the valley" hoping to find water, just as many thousands of people have done over the years. Sometimes, they went to locations where a previous generation had dug wells and dug out the dirt had been used to fill them in. Yes, certainly more manual labor than digging with a machine, but then even planting and harvesting wheat was more labor intensive then compared with now.