Thank you for your thoughts and comments.Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Feb 03, 2024 11:59 pm Wife: The examples I can see in the Bible where something good comes out of sin would include Solomon's reign of peace, which largely happened because of his 300 wives and 700 concubines. It was nice though while it lasted. Also, Paul mentioned that many preached Christ out of envy, and to cause him trouble, but Christ still was preached. then the end of the sermon on the mount mentions
I assume from that that they really did cast out demons, and too many mighty works in God’s name, but God was still displeased by them.Mat 7:22 (verseid:40.7.22) On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
Mat 7:23 (verseid:40.7.23) And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Then I'm not going to find the reference for this right now, but I know in Psalms, David complains about how he is faithful to God, and suffers for it, while the wicked seem to prosper and be blessed in all their doings, and then he sees their end and realizes that it's not all about prosperity right now.
Now for modern day examples, there are plenty of do gutters around the world that don't follow God. They might be drilling wells, or doing other things with secular organizations, or with random cults or other religions. like at my old Gleaners group, which was good for the community, and that it provided people, food, and work, you would have to be careful not to say anything against Mormonism, because everybody thought Mormons were such great people who did a lot of good and volunteered, which they do, but I would still consider their doctrine heretical. My mom was briefly a JW and then briefly a Mormon because of prison ministry and other stuff like that which we would think is good. thanks to all of this, she's basically a Universalist at this point.
Also, there are a lot of health benefits to being Hindu, for example, partly from diet, and partly from meditation, and you hear about those monks that are either Hindu or Buddhist that can control their blood pressure and heart rate, which seems like a good thing. Still doesn't justify following false gods, but that is probably one of the many reasons why so many people from Christian backgrounds seem to be drawn into that stuff nowadays, like my cousin, the Christian Buddhist. I personally don't think it's wrong to listen to and meditate on the Scriptures for example, but I don't think I would feel comfortable getting my tips on how best to do it from Hindu or Buddhist practices.
I've also heard the same argument to support female pastors, and all sorts of other things that go against the Bible, because the ends justify the means.
As for my family experience with dowsing, I don't know if it ever caused an issue for my grandfather or not (he died when I was 17), but I do know that my dad and several of his siblings were really into this crazy chiropractor who did do all the pendulum and other stuff like that, and one of my aunts who professes Christianity is into a bunch of weird new agey stuff, and claims that her daughter had to quit being a masseuse (at that same chiropractor) because she was too much of an empath and absorbed other peoples bad energy (judging from the symptoms, it sounds a lot like the joint pain and wrist pain I get from stuff like massaging my husband). I said go on about my dad, grandma, and dad's other siblings, but it would be a pretty long post if I did. our family seemed to be really into some weird stuff.
Probably some of that has absolutely nothing to do with grandpa's previous choices to practice dowsing, although I do think some of the openness with that weird chiropractor probably does, as well as obsession with angels and near death experiences and mysticism, but all I'm saying is that you don't see the consequences of different compromises and choices immediately.
that said, it didn’t seem all that clear what you meant by how the Bonawa did it/whether they were dowsing or what. Obviously, maybe science hasn’t caught up, but their attempts to re-create it haven’t worked, and there’s no evidence as of yet why it would work for water with either wood or metal rods, or work for any of the other things people use it for, like oil or minerals. I don’t think it’s actually mentioned as being used by either Moses or Abraham, and somebody would have to extrapolate quite a bit to get that, but if it does work, and it has no scientific reason to work and only seems to work with people who have the gift and the faith for it, it would make sense that there might be a supernatural reason, and we would want to know who was behind that. I’m not saying this to condemn people you know who have done it, because I don’t know how God feels about people doing it ignorantly, but I still would not be comfortable doing it, or having it done for me.
What I said about the Banawa was a description of shamanism. I was attempting to point out the lack of any ritual, reverence, or admiration directed toward the object in the hands of the water searcher, in contrast to the procedures and rituals followed by the Banawa shaman. The one is full of spiritism, the other completely devoid of any suggestion of such.
We were already members of our current congregation when the guidelines were changed, to include what was really a statement of doctrine, mixed in with the normal things you expect to find in the conduct statement of a plain congregation. That paragraph lumped "water witching" in with things like reflexiology, tarrot cards, the owiji board, drawing pain etc. Included in the list of references was one from the OT which mentioned a piece of wood used to make an idol, while the rest of the same log was used to make a cooking fire, presumably with the thought that it somehow related to the use of a piece of wood to find water. I submitted a suggested wording to make it an agreement to abstain from all participation in water searching by that method, both as direct participation as the searcher, and also agreeing not to have anyone do it one's own behalf. Although that was not accepted, that is what I am living by, and so I would not make use of a water searcher's services. In my own mind and by my convictions, I remain a member of the congregation because I am living by the agreement I made when we joined there, and to the greatest extent possible by the standards as they rewrote them. I have not been asked to recommit to them as they currently stand, and I could not, because it would be a lie for me to do so.
[Pardon my Southern accent.]
