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Re: The Church of God Movement
Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2024 8:57 am
by Valerie
Josh wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 7:25 am
Of all things that were relevant to this article, Eastern Orthodoxy is not one of them.
But the St Thomas sects in India aren’t even Eastern Orthodox; they were Church of the East, and there have been myriad schisms in the last century in that particular group.
The Saint Thomas Christians had been historically a part of the hierarchy of the Church of the East but are now divided into several different Eastern Catholic, Oriental Orthodox, Protestant, and independent bodies, each with their own liturgies and traditions.
Valerie,
What spoke to us while there- they were just like other Eastern Orthodox Churches we visited & with Thomas starting their Church in India so far from other EO areas, it really affirms their worship beliefs & practices- the man on the radio was surprised that American Christians were ,"surprised" about 2000 yr church in this part of India.
This is akin to visiting a Beachy church in Poland and then celebrating how the Amish are a 2,000 year old church in that part of Europe.
https://www.stgregorioscleveland.com/
There ya go Josh. They do call themselves Orthodox, that's why we stopped in. And they are just like Eastern Orthodox in all ways we could see. I realize the Chalcedony Council was to address the difference that came about, nonetheless they consider themselves Eastern Orthodox. If you attended a service in both you would not pick up on a difference. And no denomination resembles Orthodox, maybe Byzantine Catholics somewhat
We were to take some things away from the article & what I took away from it among other things is you cannot keep starting "the Church," over & over. The Church was established guided and protected by the Holy Spirit & schisms happen. Especially in certain denominations- something you can conclude from the article
Re: The Church of God Movement
Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2024 9:00 am
by Valerie
Josh wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 7:25 am
Of all things that were relevant to this article, Eastern Orthodoxy is not one of them.
But the St Thomas sects in India aren’t even Eastern Orthodox; they were Church of the East, and there have been myriad schisms in the last century in that particular group.
The Saint Thomas Christians had been historically a part of the hierarchy of the Church of the East but are now divided into several different Eastern Catholic, Oriental Orthodox, Protestant, and independent bodies, each with their own liturgies and traditions.
Valerie,
This is akin to visiting a Beachy church in Poland and then celebrating how the Amish are a 2,000 year old church in that part of Europe.
Which of the twelve Apostles started the Beachy church? Somehow I don't recall Beachy among those sent to start the Church. Again, schisms happen
Re: The Church of God Movement
Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2024 9:16 am
by Josh
Valerie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 8:57 am
https://www.stgregorioscleveland.com/
There ya go Josh. They do call themselves Orthodox, that's why we stopped in. And they are just like Eastern Orthodox in all ways we could see. I realize the Chalcedony Council was to address the difference that came about, nonetheless they consider themselves Eastern Orthodox. If you attended a service in both you would not pick up on a difference. And no denomination resembles Orthodox, maybe Byzantine Catholics somewhat
We were to take some things away from the article & what I took away from it among other things is you cannot keep starting "the Church," over & over. The Church was established guided and protected by the Holy Spirit & schisms happen. Especially in certain denominations- something you can conclude from the article
Valerie,
This church isn’t Eastern Orthodox. This particular one is Oriental Orthodox. Specifically, the EOs don’t consider them orthodox at all but consider them to be in schism.
Re: The Church of God Movement
Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2024 9:19 am
by Josh
Valerie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 9:00 am
Which of the twelve Apostles started the Beachy church? Somehow I don't recall Beachy among those sent to start the Church. Again, schisms happen
All 12 did. Unless you consider Beachys to not be part of the body of Christ. I do.
In any case, the Amish church in Ohio has been established here much longer than some Oriental Orthodox schism sect. Nonetheless, I would consider both Oriental adherents, Greek Catholics, Beachys, Amish, and even Parksidian Beggites to be fellow Christians.
As far as any of them making a superior claim to being THE church founded by the apostles, no.
Re: The Church of God Movement
Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2024 9:44 am
by Soloist
I was recently rereading the rationale behind some of the early church council meetings and thinking how similar the mindset was to these modern groups.
There isn’t a whole lot to disagree with Mike on here. It illustrates his point with anti-denominations well when I visited One Faith One Body wearing my plain suit.
I went willing to partake with them, I left realizing they would never accept me unless I joined them condemning all those other denominations such as Mennonite.
To be clear, they did not withhold communion. I withheld based on how they viewed my friends and current church.
Re: The Church of God Movement
Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2024 10:17 am
by Ernie
Josh wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2024 1:56 pm
Good article on the overall CoG movement, which left a very large mark on plain people. Alongside the holiness movement, it pretty much defines a large part of what conservative Anabaptists (but not Amish) are today.
Do you agree that the CoGiCM was one of the groups that came out of this movement?
Re: The Church of God Movement
Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2024 12:37 pm
by Josh
Ernie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 10:17 am
Josh wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2024 1:56 pm
Good article on the overall CoG movement, which left a very large mark on plain people. Alongside the holiness movement, it pretty much defines a large part of what conservative Anabaptists (but not Amish) are today.
Do you agree that the CoGiCM was one of the groups that came out of this movement?
John Holdeman was influenced by the revivalism he saw about him and the anti-denominationalism of the CoG movement. The present day church has influences from early revivalism (circa 1850s) and mild holiness influences (also circa 1850s - specifically, anti-drunkenness). In effect, Holdeman blended these influences with Dutch Anabaptism as it was described in books by Dutch Anabaptist writers.
It doesn’t have much influence at all from Mennonite church fundamentalism, or really fundamentalism at all, and little from the conservative Anabaptist movement either.
For this reason, the CoGiCM experience has certain elements more similar to Old Orders than other CAs, most specifically, deep scepticism of being “intellectual” and a strong emphasis on “gelassenheit” (usually called being “submitted”, “trusting”, being “teachable”, or “accepting God’s will”).
Re: The Church of God Movement
Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2024 1:30 pm
by Sudsy
Question - regarding who to fellowship with in a local church
In Matthew 13:24-30 we have the parable of the weeds. Verse 30 NKJV ends with -
Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”
But then in 1 Cor 5:13 AMP Paul writes -
God alone sits in judgment on those who are outside [the faith]. REMOVE THE WICKED ONE FROM AMONG YOU [expel him from your church].
Now it would seem that those churches often regarded here as 'liberal' apply the Matthew text to the local church (MBs for instance) whereas those regarded 'conservative' here apply the 1 Cor text.
So what do you believe the Matthew text is referring to when it says 'Let both grow together until the harvest' ? If this is not with regard to the local church, then what is it with regard to ?
Open to everyone to respond.
Re: The Church of God Movement
Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2024 1:42 pm
by Soloist
Sudsy,
Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
What does Jesus tell the disciples the field is?
Re: The Church of God Movement
Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2024 2:52 pm
by Swiss Bro
Sudsy wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 1:30 pm
Question - regarding who to fellowship with in a local church
In Matthew 13:24-30 we have the parable of the weeds. Verse 30 NKJV ends with -
Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”
But then in 1 Cor 5:13 AMP Paul writes -
God alone sits in judgment on those who are outside [the faith]. REMOVE THE WICKED ONE FROM AMONG YOU [expel him from your church].
Now it would seem that those churches often regarded here as 'liberal' apply the Matthew text to the local church (MBs for instance) whereas those regarded 'conservative' here apply the 1 Cor text.
So what do you believe the Matthew text is referring to when it says 'Let both grow together until the harvest' ? If this is not with regard to the local church, then what is it with regard to ?
Open to everyone to respond.
The Matthew passage addresses Christendom, i.e. everyone claiming to be Christian/ have Christian values and such, but not necessarily to be born again.
1. Cor. 5.13 first half speaks of the unbelievers, second half you capslocked speaks of the Church (i.e. only believers).
We are not to judge unbelievers or to find out who is truly a believer and who is only claiming to be one. But if sin happens in the Church, the Church must use disciplinary measures including the ban.