Dispensationalism II

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cmbl
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Dispensationalism II

Post by cmbl »

Ernie wrote: Over the last 75 years, many people influenced by Dispensationalist teachers, have found all sorts of verses in the Bible that seem to them to find fulfillment in events happening in the Mideast and how countries around the world respond to these events. Every decade or so, they need to come up with a new map of prophecy as events in the Mideast either don't happen according to prediction or don't seem to fit the scriptural narrative. The teachers then scrap their former outline and come up with a new outline or time table.

In my youth there was one such time period. I listened to Isaac Sensenig as he explained that "we need to keep coming back to the drawing board". No matter that he had spent hundreds or thousands of hours making up his former outlines, fulfillments, and predictions and that his listeners had spent even more hours devouring his narrative. But like those who predict the date for the Lord's return, folks like Sensenig just scrapped some of their previous work and went back to the drawing board, and many of their followers continued to support their new narratives.

Can anybody point me to a list of these "dispensationalist fulfillments" that have needed readjusting over the last 75 years, as events in the Middle East shift the narrative?
I got Daniel Hummel's The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism for Christmas this year, and it has a bunch. Can we start with this one? It's actually 150 years old and in Europe, not the middle east, but it's a real classic:
But when would the end come? In 1861, [Joseph A.] Seiss still stood with the old premillenialists, who for more than fifty years insisted that the end times would begin between 1864 and 1872. The calculation came from aligning the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation...Correlating the antichrist's reign to the rise and fall of papal supremacy over Christendom, which these interpretations placed at the overthrow of the French monarchy in the 1790s, it seemed like the mid-1860s would usher in the onset of the apocalypse...Seiss was convinced that...the French Revolution [was] one of the decisive events in the prophetic timeline. Napoleon Bonaparte's dramatic reign of 1804 to 1815 inaugurated a prophesied "Napoleonic headship" that would lead to the revival of the Roman empire and presage the return of Jesus. While it appeared that headship was short-lived after the Battle of Waterloo, the rise of Louis Napoleon [Napoleon III] as emperor in 1852 confirmed that the Napoleonic headship was the "septimo-eighth head of the seven-headed and ten-horned Beast of the great Roman dominion." Writing in 1863, Seiss resisted equating Napoleon III with the personal Anti-christ of the Last Days, but inched as close as he could, assuring readers..."we have no hesitation in saying that we are strongly inclined, with some of the most sober and learned of prophetic expositors, to believe that he is."

What Seiss saw in the next few years disappointed him, with Louis Napoleon failing to fulfill any of the prophecies ascribed to him by old premillenialists. He did not extend his empire's reign to match that of ancient Rome, he did not resettle Jews in the Holy Land, he did not persecute Protestants. In fact, the 1860s were a disastrous decade for the French monarchy...When France declared war on Prussia in July 1870, it took less than eight weeks for the Germans to force Louis Napoleon, captured and his army broken, to abdicate.

Having constructed his premillenial edifice on a failing emperor, Seiss began to hedge even before Louis Napoleon's die was cast. In 1864 he wrote "The Difficulty Solved: Two Stages of the Advent," in which he adopted the basic eschatological framework of a new, Darbyite premillenialism distinguishing between Christ's first and second return. He now insisted that "the Scriptures plainly set for a coming of Christ FOR his Church, which he catches up 'in the air,' and a coming of Christ WITH his Church, surrounded by which He descends to the earth....

Seiss's evolution on this issue played out in real time in the pages of Prophetic Times, a self-styled elite journal founded in 1863 by Seiss, George Duffield, and a fellow Philadelphian old premillenialist, Episcopal minister Richard Newton...Prophetic Times began as an old premillenial [i.e., non-Dispensational] journal, but under the leadership of Seiss, it began introducing new premillenial [later to be termed Dispensational] ideas....[Seiss] warned his readers, perhaps as a public reminder to himself, that "'Napoleonism' has exerted a wider influence than 'Millerism'" in prophecy circles in recent years and warped the conversation. The solution was simple: "We should, therefore, learn to interpose no event before the coming of the Lord to receive his waiting Church" - in other words, teach the any-moment rapture to guard against date-setting.
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Neto
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Re: Dispensationalism II

Post by Neto »

cmbl wrote: Sat Dec 30, 2023 1:52 pm
I got Daniel Hummel's The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism for Christmas this year, and it has a bunch. Can we start with this one? It's actually 150 years old and in Europe, not the middle east, but it's a real classic:
....
The solution was simple: "We should, therefore, learn to interpose no event before the coming of the Lord to receive his waiting Church" - in other words, teach the any-moment rapture to guard against date-setting.
Is this the beginning of the modern teaching of the "Imminent Return of Christ" doctrine, or had it been proposed prior to this?
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Re: Dispensationalism II

Post by cmbl »

Neto wrote: Sat Dec 30, 2023 5:37 pm
cmbl wrote: Sat Dec 30, 2023 1:52 pm
I got Daniel Hummel's The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism for Christmas this year, and it has a bunch. Can we start with this one? It's actually 150 years old and in Europe, not the middle east, but it's a real classic:
....
The solution was simple: "We should, therefore, learn to interpose no event before the coming of the Lord to receive his waiting Church" - in other words, teach the any-moment rapture to guard against date-setting.
Is this the beginning of the modern teaching of the "Imminent Return of Christ" doctrine, or had it been proposed prior to this?
Seiss, writing in the 1860s, was adopting Darby's view of the immiment rapture, which Darby developed in the 1830s.
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Dispensationalism II

Post by Heirbyadoption »

cmbl wrote: Sun Dec 31, 2023 6:21 pm
Neto wrote: Sat Dec 30, 2023 5:37 pm
cmbl wrote: Sat Dec 30, 2023 1:52 pmI got Daniel Hummel's The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism for Christmas this year, and it has a bunch. Can we start with this one? It's actually 150 years old and in Europe, not the middle east, but it's a real classic:
Is this the beginning of the modern teaching of the "Imminent Return of Christ" doctrine, or had it been proposed prior to this?
Seiss, writing in the 1860s, was adopting Darby's view of the immiment rapture, which Darby developed in the 1830s.
But did Darby really...? Or did he just put a historic view into a novel framework of "dispensationalism"? 8-) :? ;)
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cmbl
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Re: Dispensationalism II

Post by cmbl »

Heirbyadoption wrote: Mon Jan 01, 2024 12:44 pm
cmbl wrote: Sun Dec 31, 2023 6:21 pm
Neto wrote: Sat Dec 30, 2023 5:37 pmIs this the beginning of the modern teaching of the "Imminent Return of Christ" doctrine, or had it been proposed prior to this?
Seiss, writing in the 1860s, was adopting Darby's view of the immiment rapture, which Darby developed in the 1830s.
But did Darby really...? Or did he just put a historic view into a novel framework of "dispensationalism"? 8-) :? ;)
When people (including Neto) speak of the "modern teaching of the 'imminent return of Christ'" are they referring to something that could include views other than Darby's view? At some level, don't all Christians believe Jesus could come back at any time?

"Imminent return of Christ" is a phrase I first heard from Mennonites who had adopted modified dispensationalism including Darby's view of the rapture as a separate event from the Second Coming, so I'm not exactly sure what variety of views would fall under that phrase.

As near as I can tell from the history and comparative theology I've read so far (Marsden, Hummel, Burdge and Horst, parts of Steve Gregg, Ready to Harvest's comparative videos), Dispensationalism included some things that weren't new, others that were.
- Premillenialism: not new
- God working differently in different times: idea itself not new (Old versus New Testaments), number of "dispensations" probably new
- Radical distinction of Israel and the Church: new
- Church age as "parenthesis" between Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks: new
- Separation of the rapture from the Second Coming: new

As near as I can tell, some Dispensationalists and most or all non-Dispensationalists would be able to agree to the above list of "new" and "not new" things. There would be other Dispensationalists who would have trouble admitting that some of the new things were in fact new, and who like to point to the "not new" things from the list above.
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Re: Dispensationalism II

Post by Neto »

cmbl wrote: Mon Jan 01, 2024 7:31 pm ....
When people (including Neto) speak of the "modern teaching of the 'imminent return of Christ'" are they referring to something that could include views other than Darby's view? At some level, don't all Christians believe Jesus could come back at any time?
....
I should do a bit of study, to know exactly what Darby taught.

However, that is, in fact, how I meant the term. But that is not my personal understanding of Scripture. Obviously, Jesus CAN come back at any time, but my understanding of what He said (and what other Scriptures say) indicates to me that there are certain things which must take place before His return, things which do not appear to have happened.

I have been warned that "Anyone who does not believe in the imminent return of Christ will fall into sin, thinking that they will be able to return to Christ "just in time". First, that is not the way the Christian life is to be lived, and secondly, even if Christ "cannot return at any time" (because of His own determination and prophecy, not because of any lack of ability or power), there is a different kind of "imminency" at work - the fact that I could die at any moment, at which time I would be bound over to stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ. So, if I were in need of fearful terror of something that could take place at any time, that is enough.

I also confess that I could wish that the Pre-tribulation rapture view were the correct one, because it would seem to assure me that I would not need to suffer persecution. But that, I will also say, is a "Western construct" - because Christians have been suffering for the testimony Christ throughout history. As it says of Moses, that he was willing to suffer for a time, in order to identify with the Christ.
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Re: Dispensationalism II

Post by cmbl »

Neto wrote: Mon Jan 01, 2024 8:53 pm
cmbl wrote: Mon Jan 01, 2024 7:31 pm ....
When people (including Neto) speak of the "modern teaching of the 'imminent return of Christ'" are they referring to something that could include views other than Darby's view? At some level, don't all Christians believe Jesus could come back at any time?
....
I should do a bit of study, to know exactly what Darby taught.

However, that is, in fact, how I meant the term. But that is not my personal understanding of Scripture. Obviously, Jesus CAN come back at any time, but my understanding of what He said (and what other Scriptures say) indicates to me that there are certain things which must take place before His return, things which do not appear to have happened.

I have been warned that "Anyone who does not believe in the imminent return of Christ will fall into sin, thinking that they will be able to return to Christ "just in time". First, that is not the way the Christian life is to be lived, and secondly, even if Christ "cannot return at any time" (because of His own determination and prophecy, not because of any lack of ability or power), there is a different kind of "imminency" at work - the fact that I could die at any moment, at which time I would be bound over to stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ. So, if I were in need of fearful terror of something that could take place at any time, that is enough.

I also confess that I could wish that the Pre-tribulation rapture view were the correct one, because it would seem to assure me that I would not need to suffer persecution. But that, I will also say, is a "Western construct" - because Christians have been suffering for the testimony Christ throughout history. As it says of Moses, that he was willing to suffer for a time, in order to identify with the Christ.
Thanks for sharing that. I definitely agree that that so-called warning is missing the mark of true Christianity. That warning assumes that, after becoming Christians we still want to get away with as much sin as we can. Kind of like the Presbyterian, B.B. Warfield view that the sinful state is normative for Christians.
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