The Lord's Prayer

[Sudsy]

Two scholars, N T Wright and Brant Pitre, a Protestant Scholar along with a scholar at the Vatican, have argued that the Lord’s Prayer should be understood as a New Exodus prayer, and they draw many correlations between the Old Testament Exodus and the New Testament “Exodus.”

I can’t remember where, but I’d heard this idea from somewhere else before and I often think of the Israelite experiences in the wilderness when taking up this prayer.

https://ministryofstudy.wordpress.com/2 ... dus-story/

Thankyou. An interesting read.

[Sudsy]

Moving on to this phrase 'Thy Kingdom come'.

When I have read this phrase in the past I generally thought it as referring to a desire for Jesus to come back to earth and set up His Kingdom. And reading the Luke version of this prayer, Luke leaves out the next line that Matthew puts in ' Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.'

According to this view praying “Thy Kingdom come,” means this - https://www.gotquestions.org/thy-kingdom-come.html

As believers in Jesus, we acknowledge God as our King. Praying, “Thy Kingdom come,” means we desire for His sovereign rule over our lives here on earth, as we submit to His authority and yield to His control in every aspect of our existence. Likewise, praying, “Thy Kingdom come,” means we earnestly yearn for God’s reign to be established throughout the whole earth and over every human being. We pray, “Thy Kingdom come,” so that God’s sovereign rule will come now and in the future in its fullness and permanence.

So what are your thoughts about one or all of these -
1) Matthew and Luke having 2 different versions of this prayer. Why would Luke leave out the part regarding God's will ?
2) Do you understand the quote above as your understanding taken from that 'gotquestions' explanation ?
3) Luke 17:21 KJV says that the Kingdom of God is within you but most versions do not say this 'within you' - any thoughts on this ? - https://biblehub.com/luke/17-21.htm

[Swiss Bro]

This refers to the second coming of Christ and the following 1000 year kingdom.

This is why one could argue that this prayer is not a template for the church, because the church does not wait for the second coming but for the rapture.

With the rapture, the Holy Ghost will also move to heaven and the people who get saved during the tribulation will not have the Holy Ghost (it will be poured out onto them at the second coming) and, therefore, need a template prayer AND will pray for the second coming.

Yes this is Darby style dispensationalism and I know it‘s not popular round here. But since you asked

[Sudsy]

This refers to the second coming of Christ and the following 1000 year kingdom.

This is why one could argue that this prayer is not a template for the church, because the church does not wait for the second coming but for the rapture.

With the rapture, the Holy Ghost will also move to heaven and the people who get saved during the tribulation will not have the Holy Ghost (it will be poured out onto them at the second coming) and, therefore, need a template prayer AND will pray for the second coming.

Yes this is Darby style dispensationalism and I know it‘s not popular round here. But since you asked

Interesting. Never heard this take on it before. This is the teachings on this that I am more familiar with -
https://www.gotquestions.org/Holy-Spiri ... ation.html

Another way to look at 'Thy Kingdom come' is it is a statement of faith that someday the Kingdom (God's rule) will come to earth in the sense of what follows this phrase in the Matthew rendition - 'Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven'. When God's Kingdom comes to earth, His will will be fully occuring just as it now is in heaven. When I have prayed this prayer that has been my understanding that I'm stating that my desire is see God's Kingdom and His will totally unhindered someday here on earth. Therefore, it is a prayer the church can pray now.

[Ken]

This refers to the second coming of Christ and the following 1000 year kingdom.

This is why one could argue that this prayer is not a template for the church, because the church does not wait for the second coming but for the rapture.

With the rapture, the Holy Ghost will also move to heaven and the people who get saved during the tribulation will not have the Holy Ghost (it will be poured out onto them at the second coming) and, therefore, need a template prayer AND will pray for the second coming.

Yes this is Darby style dispensationalism and I know it‘s not popular round here. But since you asked

Interesting. Never heard this take on it before. This is the teachings on this that I am more familiar with -
https://www.gotquestions.org/Holy-Spiri ... ation.html

Another way to look at 'Thy Kingdom come' is it is a statement of faith that someday the Kingdom (God's rule) will come to earth in the sense of what follows this phrase in the Matthew rendition - 'Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven'. When God's Kingdom comes to earth, His will will be fully occuring just as it now is in heaven. When I have prayed this prayer that has been my understanding that I'm stating that my desire is see God's Kingdom and His will totally unhindered someday here on earth. Therefore, it is a prayer the church can pray now.

This raises an interesting question as to which is more important:

1. The original meaning and context of the words written down in Matthew and Luke. Which may or may not be a perfectly accurate transcription of Jesus' actual words since they were transcribed many decades later. And the two versions are, in fact, inconsistent with each other, or

2. The intent and meaning given to the prayer by those reciting it two millennia later in the 21st Century.

Put another way, is the Lord's Prayer scripture for us to interpret? a prayer for us to actually recite? or both?

[Sudsy]

This refers to the second coming of Christ and the following 1000 year kingdom.

This is why one could argue that this prayer is not a template for the church, because the church does not wait for the second coming but for the rapture.

With the rapture, the Holy Ghost will also move to heaven and the people who get saved during the tribulation will not have the Holy Ghost (it will be poured out onto them at the second coming) and, therefore, need a template prayer AND will pray for the second coming.

Yes this is Darby style dispensationalism and I know it‘s not popular round here. But since you asked

Interesting. Never heard this take on it before. This is the teachings on this that I am more familiar with -
https://www.gotquestions.org/Holy-Spiri ... ation.html

Another way to look at 'Thy Kingdom come' is it is a statement of faith that someday the Kingdom (God's rule) will come to earth in the sense of what follows this phrase in the Matthew rendition - 'Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven'. When God's Kingdom comes to earth, His will will be fully occuring just as it now is in heaven. When I have prayed this prayer that has been my understanding that I'm stating that my desire is see God's Kingdom and His will totally unhindered someday here on earth. Therefore, it is a prayer the church can pray now.

This raises an interesting question as to which is more important:

1. The original meaning and context of the words written down in Matthew and Luke. Which may or may not be a perfectly accurate transcription of Jesus' actual words since they were transcribed many decades later. And the two versions are, in fact, inconsistent with each other, or

2. The intent and meaning given to the prayer by those reciting it two millennia later in the 21st Century.

Put another way, is the Lord's Prayer scripture for us to interpret? a prayer for us to actually recite? or both?

I don't have an opinion on one being more important than the other.

I don't think I should 'stick my head in the sand', so to speak, when there are, for instance, two different renditions of the same prayer and when there are also other seeming contradictions between NT scriptures. I think most Christians have agreed that the scriptures are without error backed up by 2 Timothy 3:16 but few, including myself, have investigated the various seeming contradictions and discrepancies that some challenge them as having. To just ignore the original settings and audience and how they may have understood things, I think, is worth considering.

Here is a site listing many alleged biblical contradictions - https://infidels.org/library/modern/pau ... adictions/
And a Catholic reply to these - https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmst ... tions.html

I am not convinced that just reciting scripture that we don't desire to understand is what was intended for our spiritual growth. We are given the Holy Spirit to leads us into truths although since we now 'see through a glass darkly' and only now 'know in part' (1 Cor 13:12) that none of us will come to a knowledge of the scriptures complete truths. But we are told to seek out the truths of scripture and so I am interested in not just reciting the Lord's prayer, like I have with things Shakespeare said that I didn't understand, but to also seek out the meanings of the words and expressions used. 2 Timothy 2:15 says -Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

What I have experienced in saying scripture audibly has often helped me to focus on not just what I am thinking but what I am saying. To me, there is something to hearing my own voice and others speak the scripture. Jesus could have said when you pray 'think' these things but rather He said 'say'.

Sometimes saying the Lord's prayer audibly, one phrase leaps out at me more than another as if this is something I need special focus on. I believe this is one way the Holy Spirit leads us.

Would love to hear from others how praying audibly affects them compared to silent, mind only, praying.

[Sudsy]

More on - 'Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven'

I think it is easy to treat this as something that God does and is an impassive prayer of resignation. But is it not a commitment on our part to actively be at work in the execution of God’s will in our individual lives ? Romans 12:1,2 says - underlining mine -

“Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.”

Thoughts ?

[JimFoxvog]

So what are your thoughts about one or all of these -
1) Matthew and Luke having 2 different versions of this prayer. Why would Luke leave out the part regarding God's will ?

These versions are different occasions. Matthew 6 is part of the Sermon on the Mount. Luke 11 is in response to a request, "Teach us to pray", by a disciple. Jesus, like any teacher, repeated the same basic ideas many times in many contexts, but did not use the same wording every time.

Luke does not have the Sermon on the Mount at all, but covers a similar teaching done on a plain.

[Sudsy]

So what are your thoughts about one or all of these -
1) Matthew and Luke having 2 different versions of this prayer. Why would Luke leave out the part regarding God's will ?

These versions are different occasions. Matthew 6 is part of the Sermon on the Mount. Luke 11 is in response to a request, "Teach us to pray", by a disciple. Jesus, like any teacher, repeated the same basic ideas many times in many contexts, but did not use the same wording every time.

Luke does not have the Sermon on the Mount at all, but covers a similar teaching done on a plain.

True, they are 2 different occasions.

I believe one of the arguments to not recite this prayer audibly and corporately using the precise words was because they are not the exact same.

However, in Luke it is written - “When you pray, say:" so this has been interpreted by reciters to mean 'recite it as follows'. Yet the version they most often repeat is the Matthew version that begins 'pray in this manner or in this way'.

Those who say this is not to be used as word for word reciting say it rather as a template or pattern to be used in prayer. However, I don't ever recall anyone praying using their own wordings and using it as a template.

[Falco Knotwise]

So what are your thoughts about one or all of these -
1) Matthew and Luke having 2 different versions of this prayer. Why would Luke leave out the part regarding God's will ?

These versions are different occasions. Matthew 6 is part of the Sermon on the Mount. Luke 11 is in response to a request, "Teach us to pray", by a disciple. Jesus, like any teacher, repeated the same basic ideas many times in many contexts, but did not use the same wording every time.

Luke does not have the Sermon on the Mount at all, but covers a similar teaching done on a plain.

True, they are 2 different occasions.

I believe one of the arguments to not recite this prayer audibly and corporately using the precise words was because they are not the exact same.

However, in Luke it is written - “When you pray, say:" so this has been interpreted by reciters to mean 'recite it as follows'. Yet the version they most often repeat is the Matthew version that begins 'pray in this manner or in this way'.

Those who say this is not to be used as word for word reciting say it rather as a template or pattern to be used in prayer. However, I don't ever recall anyone praying using their own wordings and using it as a template.

In the gospels, we see Jesus doing both, sometimes quoting the psalms, but sometimes speaking spontaneously.

Psalm 1 says “blessed is he that meditates on thy law, day and night.” In Catholic teaching, vocal prayer, meditation and contemplative prayer are three recognized forms of prayer.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p4s1c3a1.htm