The Lord's Prayer

[silentreader]

Next phrase - And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil

Well, perhaps this phrase in the prayer will trigger more interest.

In 2017 the Pope had a real problem with this wording and approved it be changed to “do not let us fall into temptation”. His argument was -

“It is not a good translation because it speaks of a God who induces temptation,” he told Italian TV. “I am the one who falls. It’s not him pushing me into temptation to then see how I have fallen.

“A father doesn’t do that; a father helps you to get up immediately. It’s Satan who leads us into temptation – that’s his department.”

Back in 2008 the Italian bishops agreed that a new translation of the Bible should read - “do not abandon us in temptation,” (Personally I like this paraphrase as it ties in nicely with the following phrase).

So, have any of you also been puzzled by this phrase and used by most bible translations, as it can be understood to be a complete contradiction to James 1:13 which reads -Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. ?

p.s. Let's keep away from discussing the Pope here and other changes he promotes. OK ?

Another consideration on this phrase - Matthew 4:1 - 'Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.' Note here that He was 'led by the Spirit'. Does this contradict James 1:13 (see above) ?

The wording makes a clear distinction as to who is the one who tempts.
Was Satan invited to the wilderness? was he instructed to go there? or was he permitted to go, similar as to the story of Job?

[Sudsy]

Another consideration on this phrase - Matthew 4:1 - 'Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.' Note here that He was 'led by the Spirit'. Does this contradict James 1:13 (see above) ?

The wording makes a clear distinction as to who is the one who tempts.
Was Satan invited to the wilderness? was he instructed to go there? or was he permitted to go, similar as to the story of Job?

Regarding Job, Job stated that He understood it was God who was testing him. In our reading the story we know it was satan who was given permission by God to test Job. Job said that even though God kills him, he would still trust Him. So, it would appear that Job was doing what James said not to do and that is to say 'I am being tempted by God'.

However what I believe James was referring to was blaming God for tempting us to turn away from Him by allowing trials into our lives. James, I believe, was saying that God does not orchestrate the events of our lives with an intent to lure us away from Himself. He is always on our side to draw us closer to Him.

Another way of understanding 'leads us not into temptation' might be that humanly speaking I would prefer not to be lead into areas of temptation but nevertheless, if it must be so, then deliver me from all evil. God give me the strength to not let this temptation overcome me. Something similar to when Jesus was praying in the garden and He prayed not to have to go through what He must suffer but then knowing He must, He prays nevertheless thy will be done.

[Sudsy]

Next phrase - 'For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

This thread is not generating much interest but I want to finish the prayer and perhaps someone may take an interest at a later time.

Regarding this last line (the doxology)- this phrase is believed to not be part of the original text when considering the oldest manuscripts and was added on by Jerome in the 4th century. Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary says 'on a review of the evidence, the strong probability, we think, is that it was no part of the original text.' Does this concern any of you KJV only believers ? https://biblehub.com/matthew/6-13.htm

I do think this 'add on' as a doxolgy has some truth that does not take away from the prayer. To confirm one's belief that it is God's Kingdom and not ours to make it something other than what it is, to me, is important and I think that perhaps it has been made, at times, to be something other than what it is. And recognition that it is God's power, not ours and it's His glory we are to recognize are all scripturally supported in other verses too.

I have started the habit of praying this prayer beginning Jan 1st., first thing when I get up, and will see how it affects my focus, dependency on God, and starting my day. I read where the early Christians recited the Lord's Prayer three times a day at 9 am, 12 pm, and 3 pm. I'm going to go with the beginning of the day only and see what that does to improve my focus for the day.

Anymore discussion on any of this study before I leave it ?

[Falco Knotwise]

I usually think of the temptations in the prayer as “trials” similar to what the Israelites experienced in the wilderness. The tendency was usually to start grumbling when they ran out of food or water. It can be HARD for us not to complain or grumble but learning humility, patience, and faith is a process.

Learning to rely on Providence with faith and patience is a learning process.

The Greek word for temptation is Periazo, which means to reveal weakness within you. You cannot be tempted by something if the weakness for it is not already inside of you. If you are being tempted, God is using it to reveal TO YOU your weakness so you can pay attention to it and deal with its root.

“Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:” (James 1:13)

https://celebraterecovery.net/2013/12/0 ... its%20root.

As Pope Benedict XVI has written, “When we pray, ‘Lead us not into temptation,’” our earnest petition admits our need for transformation, even as we beseech the Father “not to mete out more than we can bear, not to let us slip from his hands.”

[JayP]

Just confirming the comments that while now used in the Novus Ordo Catholic mass, the last lines (power and glory) are viewed by trad Catholics (and many scholars) as not part of the Lords Prayer. Not necessarily bad words, just not original and authentic.

I do not pretend to have the right answer.

[Falco Knotwise]

Just confirming the comments that while now used in the Novus Ordo Catholic mass, the last lines (power and glory) are viewed by trad Catholics (and many scholars) as not part of the Lords Prayer. Not necessarily bad words, just not original and authentic.

I do not pretend to have the right answer.

My understanding is this is part of early church tradition. Early Christians added the “doxology” (sort of a short 1 line hymn of praise.). Adding a doxology to prayers was quite common.

That is a perfectly acceptable tradition. The irony is that in this case it is the Protestants holding to an old tradition while the Catholics are sticking to the original text, at least at mass. I think Catholics normally do say the doxology otherwise.

[MaxPC]

This is a thread to share our thoughts, interpretations, use of and anything else regarding the Lord's Prayer that is sometimes referred to as the 'Our Father' prayer. This is the KJV version taken from Matthew 6:9-13 -

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Refer to other translations and paraphrases that you prefer in this study.

You might also want to compare the Luke 11:1-4 story where it begins with the disciples actually asking Jesus - 'Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.'

A comment to begin with - Many Christian churches do not recite this prayer corporately in their worship and as some believe it is too rote. Any thoughts on this and how often does your church corporately repeat the Lord's prayer as written in the scripture ?

The complete/long/Kingdom version is prayed at every Mass.

[Falco Knotwise]

Okay. Prior to the late 1960s, the Roman Missal did not include the doxology. The novus ordo included it. Have I got that right?

[Sudsy]

Okay. Prior to the late 1960s, the Roman Missal did not include the doxology. The novus ordo included it. Have I got that right?

I found this interesting - https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/librar ... ology-1002

[MaxPC]

Okay. Prior to the late 1960s, the Roman Missal did not include the doxology. The novus ordo included it. Have I got that right?

“For the Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory are Yours, now and forever”, is prayed after the Our Father. Always has been. Post-VCII the congregants pray it with the priest in the vernacular. Ante-VCII the priest prayed it alone in Latin.