The Lord's Prayer

[Sudsy]

Next phrase - 'Give us this day our daily bread'

I believe this petition teaches me to come to God in a spirit of humble dependence, asking Him to provide what I need today. Because it says 'this day' I tend to favour the thought that this prayer is best prayed when I wake up each day. Also, it can help me to remember to live one day at a time and not get anxious about the future.

And the word 'us', reminds me, that this is not all about me and my needs but includes my family and even beyond.

What comes to your mind as you read and consider this phrase ?

[ohio jones]

Most of us probably have refrigerators, freezers, and pantries stocked with enough food for weeks or maybe even months. It's easy to forget to rely on God for the basic necessities of life. Besides, I'm trying to cut back on carbs, and a loaf of bread can last quite a while; I don't need even a slice of bread every day.

The daily bread reminds me of manna, which was supplied each day (with a double portion the day before the sabbath), but needed to be gathered or it would be of no use. So the prayer reminds me to look for the things God provides each day, including food but extending far beyond that, and of my responsibility to put those things to use in building his kingdom.

[Sudsy]

Most of us probably have refrigerators, freezers, and pantries stocked with enough food for weeks or maybe even months. It's easy to forget to rely on God for the basic necessities of life. Besides, I'm trying to cut back on carbs, and a loaf of bread can last quite a while; I don't need even a slice of bread every day.

The daily bread reminds me of manna, which was supplied each day (with a double portion the day before the sabbath), but needed to be gathered or it would be of no use. So the prayer reminds me to look for the things God provides each day, including food but extending far beyond that, and of my responsibility to put those things to use in building his kingdom.

Yes, that manna being a daily need is a good reminder of how God provides. Also a reminder about complaining about what God does provide that made God quite angry.

Interesting to me how over the years the word 'bread', in our language, still refers to a basic need and most often associated with money. Sometimes we hear 'bringing home the bacon' but I also still hear the term 'breadwinner' for the one making the money to support the family. I guess in today's world it would be more appropriate to say 'breadwinners', plural.

I tend to think this text is referring to the physical but there is some parallels here, I believe, to the spiritual. Some have made a ministry of daily devotionals to help them focus on their daily spiritual needs. For instance, I was part of a local church that provided the 'Our Daily Bread' booklets to help people focus each day on some spiritual truth. Today it is even online - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmoPSa ... QJPc1KCQvw

Perhaps we could share here what we are using as a daily reading from some source that can be recommended to others since it is a good time for fresh starts beginning the year ?

What do you recommend as a daily source of spiritual bread along with reading the scriptures ?

[Sudsy]

Next phrase - 'And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.'

The Luke 11:4 says - 'And forgive us our sins, For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.' The AMP puts it this way '‘And forgive us our sins, For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us [who has offended or wronged us]. '

From here - https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/fo ... s-our-what

How we recite that phrase usually depends more on what English-speaking Christian tradition influenced us than what Bible translation we use. Those raised in Presbyterian or Reformed traditions are more likely to say “debts.” Those who come from Anglican/Episcopal, Methodist, or Roman Catholic traditions are more likely to say “trespasses.” Those whose churches were influenced by ecumenical liturgical movements of the late twentieth century are probably more likely to say “sins.”

When I have said this prayer as a youth, I always considered the word 'debts' as relating to money and since I didn't have anybody owing me money or me owing anyone money, I didn't think it was applicable to me.

What is your understanding on what is meant here ? Do you think the AMP version above with its section in brackets '[who has offended or wronged us]' is what is intended to be understood here ? For example, 'God forgive me for offending you (sinning against you) because I am forgiving (or have forgiven) everyone who has wronged or offended me'.

Thoughts on this and how you have understood it ?

[RZehr]

I’m used to the KJV “Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors”. I don’t think that God has ever borrowed money from us. So it can’t mean money.

[Sudsy]

I’m used to the KJV “Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors”. I don’t think that God has ever borrowed money from us. So it can’t mean money.

For sure but do you think it means being offended or wronged by someone and prior to us requesting God to forgive us of our offenses toward Him, we have forgiven others who have offended us in some way ? In other words, we shouldn't expect God to forgive us of our offenses if we are not forgiving others their offenses against us. And God knows whether we have let go and forgiven someone who offends or trespasses against us. We can't fool God.

[RZehr]

I’m used to the KJV “Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors”. I don’t think that God has ever borrowed money from us. So it can’t mean money.

For sure but do you think it means being offended or wronged by someone and prior to us requesting God to forgive us of our offenses toward Him, we have forgiven others who have offended us in some way ? In other words, we shouldn't expect God to forgive us of our offenses if we are not forgiving others their offenses against us. And God knows whether we have let go and forgiven someone who offends or trespasses against us. We can't fool God.

That would be my understanding.

[Sudsy]

Next phrase - And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil

Well, perhaps this phrase in the prayer will trigger more interest.

In 2017 the Pope had a real problem with this wording and approved it be changed to “do not let us fall into temptation”. His argument was -

“It is not a good translation because it speaks of a God who induces temptation,” he told Italian TV. “I am the one who falls. It’s not him pushing me into temptation to then see how I have fallen.

“A father doesn’t do that; a father helps you to get up immediately. It’s Satan who leads us into temptation – that’s his department.”

Back in 2008 the Italian bishops agreed that a new translation of the Bible should read - “do not abandon us in temptation,” (Personally I like this paraphrase as it ties in nicely with the following phrase).

So, have any of you also been puzzled by this phrase and used by most bible translations, as it can be understood to be a complete contradiction to James 1:13 which reads -Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. ?

p.s. Let's keep away from discussing the Pope here and other changes he promotes. OK ?

[steve-in-kville]

Our church recites it at the close of each prayer meeting.

The Dunkard Church was that way, except for prayers before a meal.

[Sudsy]

Next phrase - And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil

Well, perhaps this phrase in the prayer will trigger more interest.

In 2017 the Pope had a real problem with this wording and approved it be changed to “do not let us fall into temptation”. His argument was -

“It is not a good translation because it speaks of a God who induces temptation,” he told Italian TV. “I am the one who falls. It’s not him pushing me into temptation to then see how I have fallen.

“A father doesn’t do that; a father helps you to get up immediately. It’s Satan who leads us into temptation – that’s his department.”

Back in 2008 the Italian bishops agreed that a new translation of the Bible should read - “do not abandon us in temptation,” (Personally I like this paraphrase as it ties in nicely with the following phrase).

So, have any of you also been puzzled by this phrase and used by most bible translations, as it can be understood to be a complete contradiction to James 1:13 which reads -Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. ?

p.s. Let's keep away from discussing the Pope here and other changes he promotes. OK ?

Another consideration on this phrase - Matthew 4:1 - 'Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.' Note here that He was 'led by the Spirit'. Does this contradict James 1:13 (see above) ?