Replying to John Hurt re: Dispensationalism, et al

[gcdonner]

I suggest that you study what the phrase "this generation" means before you re-interpret it to suit your theology.

It means "offspring" or "race". Matt 12:39.

And yes, the offspring of God's People have survived even unto this day, and will be here when Christ returns.

You are absolutely incorrect. It is not used this way in the NT or for that matter in the OT. The term is most often referring to the contemporaneous group of people living at that time and in scripture is often considered to be a 40 year period. Again I won't hijack this thread to answer your assertions.

Here is the original context in scripture of the phrase in question

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Here is a word study that I have done using this phrase both in the OT as well as the NT.

“This generation shall not pass…”
G1074
γενεά
genea
Thayer Definition:
1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
2b) metaphorically a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
2b1) especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation
3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), [a space of 40 years]
New Testament use of “this generation”

Matt. 24:34 …This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mk. 13.30 1Pet 4:7
Lk. 21:32

Matt. 23:29-36-38
Lk. 11:47-50,51-52

Matt. 3:7; 11:16; 12:34-35; 16:1-4; 17:14-17
Mk. 8:12,38; 9:19
Lk. 3:7; 7:31; 9:41; 11:29-32; 17:25

Phil. 2:15 (nation=genea=generation) cf. Deut. 32:5,20
Acts 2:40

Old Testament use of “this generation”
Gen 7:1; 15:16; 50:23; Ex 1:6;
Deut. 1:21-35-37; 2:14-15; 32:5 this evil, crooked, perverse generation
Num. 32:13 all the generation
Jud 2;10 that generation…another generation
Jer. 7:29-34 … generation of his wrath
Ps. 95:10-11 cf. Heb. 3:9,10,11 this generation that generation
Eccl. 1:4 one generation…another generation Dan 4:3 …His dominion from generation to generation
“…when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ, which in other ages [literally- generations: GK genea] was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit…” (Eph. 3:4,5)
“Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages [genea=generations] world without end. Amen (Eph. 3:20,21)
The mystery of Christ was revealed in the generation marked off by His coming in personal ministry and that generation was completed by the fulfillment of His prophecy of the removal of all Old Covenant types and shadows in the destruction of Jerusalem, its governmental system, its national identity, and its temple and priesthood. There never was and never will be the dissolution of another covenant of God, nor the manifestation of another covenant of God. The First was fulfilled and superseded by the Second. As the First waxed old and vanished away (Heb.8:13), the Second came to full light and was manifested as the Everlasting Covenant which will never pass away!

The context determines the appropriate usage of the word, "genea".
Here is what John Gill had to say about it:

Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass,.... Not the generation of men in general; as if the sense was, that mankind should not cease, until the accomplishment of these things; nor the generation, or people of the Jews, who should continue to be a people, until all were fulfilled; nor the generation of Christians; as if the meaning was, that there should be always a set of Christians, or believers in Christ in the world, until all these events came to pass; but it respects that present age, or generation of men then living in it; and the sense is, that all the men of that age should not die, but some should live

John Lightfoot said this:

[This generation shall not pass, etc.] hence it appears plain enough, that the foregoing verses are not to be understood of the last judgment, but, as we said, of the destruction of Jerusalem. There were some among the disciples (particularly John), who lived to see these things come to pass. With Mat_16:28; compare Joh_21:22. And there were some Rabbins alive at the time when Christ spoke these things, that lived till the city was destroyed, viz. Rabban Simeon, who perished with the city, R. Jochanan Ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R. Zadoch, R. Ismael, and others.

Albert Barnes reported:

This generation ... - This age; this race of people. A generation is about 30 or 40 years. The destruction of Jerusalem took place about forty years after this was spoken.

Matthew 1:17 also demonstrates the proper use of the term:

Mat 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

When taken to refer to a period of about 40 years (based on "this generation" of Deut 1:35; 2:14; 32:5-7), it answers the age old question of when Daniel's 70 weeks was fulfilled. It was fulfilled in Christ, according to scripture with no "parenthesis" being inserted.

Jesus was referring to the "generation" of men contemporary with him, whom he condemned:

Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

It is without coincidence that within 40 years, a biblical "generation", the city of Jerusalem was destroyed and all the other portents that Jesus declared were fulfilled, including his return in power "on the clouds".
I suggest a study of that phrase as well. See the next post.

[gcdonner]

It is always best to interpret scripture with scripture and use the terms it uses consistently as it does. Our imaginations can run wild with what "we think" something is being portrayed.

[gcdonner]

Regarding speaking in tongues, here is a record from the 1950s of a miraculous situation:

Excerpts from “The Helper” by Catherine Marshall:
A considerable portion of [Betty Malz’s] childhood was spent in Attica, Indiana. Betty’s father ministered in the little frame Rosedale Church…What happened some years ago on a hot summer evening to Betty’s quiet, shy mother, Fern Perkins, who scarcely eve raised her voice in church.
The congregation was suffering with the heat, so the church’s double doors opening onto a little porch were wide open to catch any breath of air stirring. In the middle of the service two things happened simultaneously…..
Inside the church Betty’s mother ws suddenly told by the inner Voice to stand up and pray in her heavenly language. Fern Perkins’ natural reserve and reticence about such a thing were swept aside by a compulsive inner pressure: she had to obey.
As she did, outside the church an elderly Greek coal miner, his miner’s cap and lantern still on his head, was walking by the church as he headed home from work. This man was in deep discouragement. Coal mining had been the only job he could find. The pay was small and the hours long. He never saw the light of day: he went to work before sunrise and returned after dark. To add to his discouragement and loneliness, he had found no one in the community who could understand his Greek, and he spoke little English.
As he plodded along past the Rosedale Church, suddenly through the open doors he heard a woman’s voice speaking perfect Greek. AT last! At last someone with whom he could talk!
Impulsively, the man sped into the church, spotted the woman from whose lips still came that beautiful modern Greek. Ignoring the stares of the worshipers, he began excitedly jabbering to Mrs. Perkins in his native tongue. Of course Betty’s mother could not understand a word he was saying.
By now the church was in a uproar. Gradually, the truth dawned on both sides. It was a miracle straight out of the book of Acts, because the miner himself was able, haltingly, to translate the message that was manna to his spirit. As Betty recalls, it was something like this:
“God loves you. God has a purpose for your life and for your family. He has the power to forgive sins, to bring you joy and hope and loving purpose. He will give you a path to travel that will bring joy an dpeace to you and to those you love so dearly.”
When the man realize that his new friend did not naturally speak Greek and that God had take hold of her tongue and spoken this through her, he dropped to his knees, and with tears pouring down his cheeks, began praising God. Then and there the miner gave his life to Jesus.
From then on, he and his family not only attended Rosedale Church, regularly and made a host of friends there, but several other families were drawn into the church because of this one miracle of the Helper’s gift of “other tongues”.

[Josh]

Yes, and that’s entirely different from babbling nonsense that has no chance at being “interpreted”.

[gcdonner]

Looking for new heavens and new earth:
(David H. Chilton)
According to St. Peter's second epistle, Christ and the apostles had warned that apostasy would accelerate toward the end of the "last days" (2 Pet. 3:2-4; cf. Jude 17-19) - the forty-year period between Christ's ascension and the destruction of the Old Covenant Temple in A.D. 70. [1] He makes it clear that these latter-day "mockers" were Covenant apostates: familiar with Old Testament history and prophecy, they were Jews who had abandoned the Abrahamic Covenant by rejecting Christ. As Jesus had repeatedly warned (cf. Matt. 12:38-45; 16:1-4;23:29-39), upon this evil and perverse generation would come the great "Day of Judgment" foretold in the prophets, a "destruction of ungodly men" like that suffered by the wicked of Noah's day (2 Pet.3:5-7).

Throughout His ministry Jesus drew this analogy (see Matthew 24:37-39 and Luke17:26-27). Just as God destroyed the "world" of the antediluvian era by the Flood, so would the "world" of first-century Israel be destroyed by fire in the fall of Jerusalem.

St. Peter describes this judgment as the destruction of "the present heavens and earth" (v. 7), making way for "new heavens and a new earth" (v. 10). Because of what may be called the "collapsing-universe" terminology used in this passage, many have mistakenly assumed that St. Peter is speaking of the final end of the physical heaven and earth, rather than the dissolution of the Old Covenant world order. The great seventeenth-century Puritan theologian John Owen answered this view by referring to the Bible's very characteristic metaphorical usage of the terms heavens and earth, as in Isaiah's description of the Mosaic Covenant:

But I am the LORD thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: The LORD of hosts is his name. And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people (Isa. 51:15 -16).

John Owen writes:

The time when the work here mentioned, of planting the heavens, and laying the foundation of the earth, was performed by God, was when he "divided the sea" (Isa. 51:15), and gave the law (v. 16), and said to Zion, "Thou art my people" - that is, when he took the children of Israel out of Egypt, and formed them in the wilderness into a church and state. Then he planted the heavens, and laid the foundation of the earth - made the new world; that is, brought forth order, and government, and beauty, from the confusion wherein before they were. This is the planting of the heavens, and laying the foundation of the earth in the world. And hence it is, that when mention is made of the destruction of a state and government, it is in that language that seems to set forth the end of the world. So Isaiah 34:4; which is yet but the destruction of the state of Edom. The like is also affirmed of the Roman empire, Revelation 6:14; which the Jews constantly affirmed to be intended by Edom in the prophets. And in our Saviour Christ's prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem, Matthew 24, he sets it out by expressions of the same importance. It is evident then, that, in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by "heavens" and "earth," the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, are often understood. So were the heavens and earth that world which was then destroyed by the flood.

Another Old Testament text, among many that could be mentioned, is Jeremiah 4:23-31, which speaks of the imminent fall of Jerusalem (587 B.C.) in similar language of de-creation:

I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; and to the heavens, and they had no light....For thus says the LORD, the whole land shall be a desolation [referring to the curse of Lev.26:31-33; see its fulfillment in Matt.24:15!], yet I will not execute a complete destruction. For this the earth shall mourn, and the heavens above be dark....

New Creation Language From the very beginning, God's covenant with Israel had been expressed in terms of a new creation: Moses described Israel's salvation in the wilderness in terms of the Spirit of God hovering over a waste, just as in the original creation of heaven and earth (Deut. 32:10-11; cf. Gen. 1:2). In the Exodus, as at the original creation, God divided light and darkness (Ex. 14:20), divided the waters from the waters to bring forth the dry land (Ex. 14:21-22), and planted His people in His holy mountain (Ex. 15:17). God's miraculous formation of Israel was thus an image of Creation, a redemptive recapitulation of the making of heaven and earth. The Old Covenant order, in which the entire world was organized around the central sanctuary of the Jerusalem Temple, could quite appropriately be described, before its final dissolution, as "the present heavens and earth."

The Mosaic Economy The 19th-century expositor John Brown wrote:

A person at all familiar with the phraseology of the Old Testament scriptures knows that the dissolution of the Mosaic economy, and the establishment of the Christian, is often spoken of as the removing of the old earth and heavens, and the creation of a new earth and heavens....The period of the close of the one dispensation, and the commencement of the other, is spoken of as 'the last days' and 'the end of the world'; and is described as such a shaking of the earth and heavens, as should lead to the removal of the things which were shaken (Hag. 2:6; Heb. 12:26-27).

Therefore, says Owen,
"On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state - i.e., the Fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70."


This interpretation is confirmed by St. Peter's further information: In this imminent "Day of the Lord" which was about to come upon the first-century world "like a thief" (cf. Matt. 24:42-43; I Thess. 5:2; Rev.3:3), "the elements will be destroyed with intense heat" (v. 10; cf. v. 12).
Remember that YHWH declared a new beginning for his people including the institution of a whole new calendar after their deliverance from Egypt. It was a totally New Heaven and New Earth for them, especially when they entered the Promised Land.


It is interesting to note that Jesus final pronouncement on the Jews was "your house is left unto you desolate". With no further provisions, but when Jeremiah recorded YHWH's pronouncement in Jer 4:27 at the previous destruction of Jerusalem and the people, he made a provision for future restoration.

Jer 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

The consequences of the first desolation was merely to the land, the consequences of the second desolation was to the entire "house", ie, the "house of Moses". (see Heb 3:1-6) It was supplanted by the Son's house, "whose house are we".
The same de-creation scenario spoken of under the Old Covenant is confirmed with similar language in Heb 8:13:

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Compare that with the statements in chapter 1:10-12 of the same book:

Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that this is speaking of the natural earth and heavens for of them YHWH has already declared:

Isa 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Psa 78:69 And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever.

Psa 93:1 The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.

Psa 104:5 He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever.

Psa 148:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights.
2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.
3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.
4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.
5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.
6 He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass.

Psa 119:90 Your faithfulness continues throughout all generations; You established the earth, and it stands.

Ecc 1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

(Remember my discussion of "this generation" in a previous post?)

[Sudsy]

gc, I find this all quite interesting to read and this question keeps coming to mind -

Jesus said He would send us the Holy Spirit who would lead us into truth and yet there are many varied beliefs in Christianity about what is the truth about end times, the Gospel, sanctification, baptisms etc, etc .

How do you explain that we can be lead by the Spirit and yet end up with all these variations ?

I don't mean to interrupt your thread and if you wish I can make it a new thread for everyone's input. We might have addressed this in another stand alone thread and I just don't recall where.

[gcdonner]

gc, I find this all quite interesting to read and this question keeps coming to mind -

Jesus said He would send us the Holy Spirit who would lead us into truth and yet there are many varied beliefs in Christianity about what is the truth about end times, the Gospel, sanctification, baptisms etc, etc .

How do you explain that we can be lead by the Spirit and yet end up with all these variations ?

I don't mean to interrupt your thread and if you wish I can make it a new thread for everyone's input. We might have addressed this in another stand alone thread and I just don't recall where.

If we are to be honest, Jesus was not speaking to "us" but specifically to his present disciples at that time, ie "the apostles". While I don't hold to the limitation of the Spirit direction for us today, too often we are subject to our own perspective by what we have been taught and learned through the years. Too often we are trying to prove a point to get others to follow our line of reasoning.
I am guilty of it myself, and acknowledge that I am not "inspired" in the same context as the NT writers or Christ himself. What I have tried to do in my journey is to lay down my preconceived ideas, then see and hear what scripture actually says. As I have come to understand it, the time context, audience relevance and intent of the speaker make a HUGE difference in understanding various parts of theology. I confess that I am still learning even at my old age (nearly 75), and have lots to learn. I have allowed myself to be challenged by different orientations, and even agnostics/atheists along the way. I nearly gave up my faith a few years ago in this search for truth, but am satisfied that I am on the right path, though not so sure as I used to be, at what point I am on that journey.
Dispensationalism is less than 300 years old, and a pre-trib/pre-mill rapture is less than 400 years old. In the overall scheme of things that makes them relatively "new" ideas, yet we see them being perpetuated by the TV and internet. IMO the scripture does not teach an earthly "millennial reign" from Jerusalem. It's not there in the all empowering Revelation 20 that so many point to. Nothing of Jerusalem is said, nothing of an earthly reign is mentioned. I confess not to know the implications of Rev 20 entirely, but they don't (again in my opinion) point to the above mentioned teachings...
Sorry for the rambling answer Sudsy. Keep asking and keep seeking. I moved essentially from dispensational teachings that I was brought up on to the Preterist position as a result of my study of scripture, which began with trying to find a 2 part second coming....

[Sudsy]

gc, I find this all quite interesting to read and this question keeps coming to mind -

Jesus said He would send us the Holy Spirit who would lead us into truth and yet there are many varied beliefs in Christianity about what is the truth about end times, the Gospel, sanctification, baptisms etc, etc .

How do you explain that we can be lead by the Spirit and yet end up with all these variations ?

I don't mean to interrupt your thread and if you wish I can make it a new thread for everyone's input. We might have addressed this in another stand alone thread and I just don't recall where.

If we are to be honest, Jesus was not speaking to "us" but specifically to his present disciples at that time, ie "the apostles". While I don't hold to the limitation of the Spirit direction for us today, too often we are subject to our own perspective by what we have been taught and learned through the years. Too often we are trying to prove a point to get others to follow our line of reasoning.
I am guilty of it myself, and acknowledge that I am not "inspired" in the same context as the NT writers or Christ himself. What I have tried to do in my journey is to lay down my preconceived ideas, then see and hear what scripture actually says. As I have come to understand it, the time context, audience relevance and intent of the speaker make a HUGE difference in understanding various parts of theology. I confess that I am still learning even at my old age (nearly 75), and have lots to learn. I have allowed myself to be challenged by different orientations, and even agnostics/atheists along the way. I nearly gave up my faith a few years ago in this search for truth, but am satisfied that I am on the right path, though not so sure as I used to be, at what point I am on that journey.
Dispensationalism is less than 300 years old, and a pre-trib/pre-mill rapture is less than 400 years old. In the overall scheme of things that makes them relatively "new" ideas, yet we see them being perpetuated by the TV and internet. IMO the scripture does not teach an earthly "millennial reign" from Jerusalem. It's not there in the all empowering Revelation 20 that so many point to. Nothing of Jerusalem is said, nothing of an earthly reign is mentioned. I confess not to know the implications of Rev 20 entirely, but they don't (again in my opinion) point to the above mentioned teachings...
Sorry for the rambling answer Sudsy. Keep asking and keep seeking. I moved essentially from dispensational teachings that I was brought up on to the Preterist position as a result of my study of scripture, which began with trying to find a 2 part second coming....

Thanks gc, so much I can relate to here. I'm going on, Lord willing, to soon be 77 and as I got older I find myself still taking fresh looks on scriptures that I had basically been told that this is what they mean and how I should apply them. My experience of fellowshipping in churches, Pentecostal (2), Baptist (2), Salvation Army, Mennonite Brethren and being raised in a home listening to my father discuss scripture with his best friend, a Plymouth Brethren, has given me some exposure to varied understandings. I have a cousin my age who has been Pentecostal all his 77 years and he is pretty much locked into that belief. I see this happening in other Christian faith goups also. It is like one is sinning to think outside the group's beliefs you are currently part of.

I liked your point that some of these understandings of scripture are just a few hundred years old. Seems to me that as the scriptures became more available to all, so did the varied understandings. I keep thinking of the verse about how we now see through a glass darkly and only now know in part. Yet, so many have split off into various Christian groups thinking they know more of the truth than others do.

I underlined a part of your last post that I am also experiencing and not just accepting what others are telling me to believe about what was said. And, so true, we are still learning even though some chose to stay locked in to not consider anything other than what their pastor or denomination believes. That is their choice but it could be a risky one on some issues, according to my understandings. And they probably would say the same about my understandings being risky.

Regarding eschatology I had not had exposure to the Preterist view before you sharing it a few years ago. I find it, in many ways, very much a possibility. At this point, I have jokingly called myself a 'panmill' (it will all pan out in the end).

My current concern here is the understandings of salvation. Sometimes it seems to me there is another gospel or gospels that surface that are not based on a real born again, life changing relationship with God. A gospel that focuses on religious ways but lacking a Jesus attitude toward the lost. Something of the sorts of the Pharisees who lacked the Jesus active heart concern for people's life now and their eternal destination. I am concerned as I don't have that focus as I once did and need to get it back.

God bless you bro and yes I'll keep seeking, especially to get a vision back of people perishing without the Lord and what my role can still be.

[gcdonner]

My current concern here is the understandings of salvation. Sometimes it seems to me there is another gospel or gospels that surface that are not based on a real born again, life changing relationship with God. A gospel that focuses on religious ways but lacking a Jesus attitude toward the lost. Something of the sorts of the Pharisees who lacked the Jesus active heart concern for people's life now and their eternal destination. I am concerned as I don't have that focus as I once did and need to get it back.

God bless you bro and yes I'll keep seeking, especially to get a vision back of people perishing without the Lord and what my role can still be.

I am finding that God provides opportunities for me to share with folks in different venues these days, both online and otherwise. It is my opinion that if we are prepared to be used of God, he will provide the opportunities and when they come he will fill my heart and mind as well as my mouth, giving me the right things to say (and not say..) since he is the author of our privileges to minister to others. I will be 75 in less than a month from now, and my physical abilities are waning. I still play my guitar during worship at our church, and occasionally lead bible study during the week as well as preach from time to time, both of which I have/am doing this week. I am concerned that I don't see the kind of motivation to reach out that I used to see, but that has always been a sad point with me, too much mediocrity in the church.
I will be preaching, Lord willing on "Do you have Sartorial Impeccability" on Sunday morning this week. (Put off the old man and put on the new man...)
I believe in being a doer of the Word and not a hearer only, so I keep going as well as I can. God knows our limitations, but will use us in spite of them in a way that will bring glory to him. Jesus is LORD! Jesus Reigns! He is Sovereign! I trust him to guide me and motivate me to do his will.
Blessings my friend. For us heaven is nearer than when we began this journey. Halleluiah!

[JohnHurt]

George,

I appreciate your insights.

Looking at "this generation" in Matt 24, from your viewpoint:

Which verses do you think occurred before the Destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, which were during, and which came after?

I understand verses 15-20 encouraged the followers of Christ to leave Jerusalem for Pella. Is that accurate?

Thanks,

John