How to Reconcile Jesus and Spiritual Fruit

General Christian Theology
Praxis+Theodicy
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Re: How to Reconcile Jesus and Spiritual Fruit

Post by Praxis+Theodicy »

I'd say that the fruits of the Spirit (or at least those listed in Galatians 5) that Jesus was demonstrating in the temple were:
Love,
Peace
Patience,
Goodness,
Faithfulness,
Self-control.

Keep in mind, the fruit of the Spirit is a big-picture view of a born-again believer (those who have been born of water and the Spirit). They are not a list of characteristics that are on display at all times. Rather, if you know a Spirit-filled person, you can judge by the big picture of their life that they are defined by things like patience, joy, peace, gentleness, etc.

But there are times where it is right and Godly to express frustration, or anger, or mourning, instead of joy. But they should be appropriate reactions to circumstances, not the defining mood of our lives.
Similarly, we should ultimately display a life defined by gentleness. But there are times where gentleness is not the correct response. A firm stance against sin and rebellion requires patience but eventually also requires firmness and not gentleness. I think gentleness and patience go together. That's why church discipline has three gentle rebukes (patience) before the church takes a firm stance and rids itself of unhealthy leaven.
And keep in mind that just because "gentleness" is not an appropriate response in 100% of circumstances, this does NOT give an allowance for Christians to use any and all means of ungentleness for any circumstances. Violence, for example, is not a means available to Christians. More properly, an ultimate response could be to call upon those who bear the sword (the state) to intervene, working as God's avenger of wrongs. For example, the legal system should be utilized when there is sexual abuse in the church. This is a time when gentleness isn't utilized. On the other hand, the ungentleness of vigilante justice isn't for Christians. So you can see that, even though there is a time where gentleness isn't the correct response that there are still always ungentle responses that are always off the table.
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Sudsy
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Re: How to Reconcile Jesus and Spiritual Fruit

Post by Sudsy »

Praxis+Theodicy wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:56 am I'd say that the fruits of the Spirit (or at least those listed in Galatians 5) that Jesus was demonstrating in the temple were:
Love,
Peace
Patience,
Goodness,
Faithfulness,
Self-control.

Keep in mind, the fruit of the Spirit is a big-picture view of a born-again believer (those who have been born of water and the Spirit). They are not a list of characteristics that are on display at all times. Rather, if you know a Spirit-filled person, you can judge by the big picture of their life that they are defined by things like patience, joy, peace, gentleness, etc.

But there are times where it is right and Godly to express frustration, or anger, or mourning, instead of joy. But they should be appropriate reactions to circumstances, not the defining mood of our lives.
Similarly, we should ultimately display a life defined by gentleness. But there are times where gentleness is not the correct response. A firm stance against sin and rebellion requires patience but eventually also requires firmness and not gentleness. I think gentleness and patience go together. That's why church discipline has three gentle rebukes (patience) before the church takes a firm stance and rids itself of unhealthy leaven.
And keep in mind that just because "gentleness" is not an appropriate response in 100% of circumstances, this does NOT give an allowance for Christians to use any and all means of ungentleness for any circumstances. Violence, for example, is not a means available to Christians. More properly, an ultimate response could be to call upon those who bear the sword (the state) to intervene, working as God's avenger of wrongs. For example, the legal system should be utilized when there is sexual abuse in the church. This is a time when gentleness isn't utilized. On the other hand, the ungentleness of vigilante justice isn't for Christians. So you can see that, even though there is a time where gentleness isn't the correct response that there are still always ungentle responses that are always off the table.
Thankyou, some good thoughts given.

I ran across this link regarding this topic - https://ourdailybread.org/a-fresh-look- ... he-spirit/

What are your thoughts regarding this section of the above - Will all believers have all the fruit in equal measure? Especially the paragraph beginning -
Perhaps the fruit of the Spirit, like the gifts of the Spirit, are to be thought about in more corporate terms. 
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Pursuing a Kingdom life in the Spirit
Heirbyadoption
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Re: How to Reconcile Jesus and Spiritual Fruit

Post by Heirbyadoption »

Sudsy wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 7:13 pm
Heirbyadoption wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 3:09 pm
Sudsy wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 11:32 amAnd does this example give room for a Jesus follower to physically resist evil doings in a similar way with force ?
Sudsy, maybe what Barnhart meant to say is, "your speech betrayeth thee..." 8-)
Serious answer though: no. Speaking from a simplistic (and admittedly Anabaptist) hermeneutic here, what Gal 5 fruit Jesus did or did not manifest there in the temple is irrelevant to this last question. In His Divine identity, Jesus had full authority to exercise in ways He has forbidden His followers to engage in (and looking at the text itself, whether he used physical force against anything more animals and furniture is speculative at best...).

Perhaps a simple example for clarity - If I tell my 7 year old child he cannot drive a truck on the Interstate, because I know the harmful effects his lack of experience and inability to handle the situation could/would create, is he then justified to defy my instructions on the basis that I drive a truck on the Interstate (being both authorized and able to control that which he is not and cannot? Obviously not.

I realize there may be some disagreement on whether the followers of Jesus are forbidden (whether by Jesus directly or through Spirit-led Apostolic teaching) from using physical force to resist evil doings, and that's a post or three in their own right, but we should at least try to be consistent in our logic, yes...?
Thankyou for your reply. What I was thinking when I asked that question was just how certain actions of Jesus could be explained and related to the fruit of the Sprit. I also used an example in my opening post of Jesus way of speaking to the Pharisees as not appearing very gentle which is one of these descriptions of Spiritual fruit.

I was hoping we could compare and try to explain how Jesus ways can be seen as fruit of the Spirit as we know He was filled with the Spirit and His actions would be in tune with the Spirit and whether we can act in a similar way. You gave your view saying 'In His Divine identity, Jesus had full authority to exercise in ways He has forbidden His followers to engage in (and looking at the text itself, whether he used physical force against anything more animals and furniture is speculative at best...)'. So, if I understand you correctly, Jesus is our example but not in certain ways that He acted as He was Divine and we are not, right ?

I guess I was perceived by what I asked to be challenging nonresistance and this was some way of doing that. I can only say God knows what I was really looking for and my real purpose. What others read into my motives I can't do much about.
Thanks for clarifying! As MN continues to devolve/evolve into a less Anabaptist-oriented crowd, some of us tend to be "once bit, twice shy", but I do apologize for being too quick to assume. The simplest answer to your primary question then, as I understand it, is still somewhat along the lines of my initial answer, at least imho. For starters to maybe further the discussion, would it be fair to say that the things He did, and also the fruit(s) of the Spirit listed in Scripture, are both rooted in the concept of holiness?
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