Musical Instruments

[Sudsy]

In OT scripture we read much on using musical instruments in worship. Then again in the Revelation we read of the use of musical instruments in worship in heaven. But between these two, the NT, because there is no specific mention of using musical instruments in worship, some believe they should not be used.

Now lets look at what people wore. OT refers often to robes. The Revelation, robes again. The NT likewise.

So it would appear that if we are going to use the Bible, to be our practise, then there is just as much, if not more, logic to continue wearing robes rather than the various other forms of dress that we wear today, right ?

The NT speaks of robe type wearing but says nothing about venturing off from robes into cape dresses, bonnets, caps of sorts, hat types for men, suspenders, buttons instead of zippers, pants, shirts, ties, etc. Modest dress can certainly be had by continuing in NT practise to wearing robes and using a veil for a head covering.

Seems then to me to be straying from NT biblical practise in both cases - by not continuing to wear robes as it is to straying to use musical instruments in worship. To change from robes to some othere kind of dress can be considered to be just as 'worldly' as using musical instruments which some see as 'worldly'.

If those who don't use musical instruments in worship also continued to wear robes, both men and women, then I would regard them as being the most biblical and consistent in their applications.

Yes/No ?

[RZehr]

No.

[Josh]

Hey, if you want to have a rock concert at ear splitting levels with a light show for your “worship”, go right ahead. But don’t pretend it is remotely biblical or encouraged by the New Testament.

Some Megachurches now play secular music before the service to make seekers feel more “comfortable”.

[Sudsy]

No.

I guess I forgot to ask for reason(s) if one cares to share them.

[ken_sylvania]

It looks to me like Mr. Sudsy is spoiling for a fight today...

I guess if you believe that all the unbelievers are just going to go "poof" and dissolve into nothing then maybe it doesn't matter whether one wastes their time and energy in trying to generate controversy rather than in being an ambassador for Christ.

[Sudsy]

It looks to me like Mr. Sudsy is spoiling for a fight today...

I guess if you believe that all the unbelievers are just going to go "poof" and dissolve into nothing then maybe it doesn't matter whether one wastes their time and energy in trying to generate controversy rather than in being an ambassador for Christ.

Sorry, I have no idea what that last paragraph means.

I am not looking for a fight but rather suggesting arguments from silence are notoriously flawed. Saying that the New Testament does not authorize the church to use mechanical instruments of music is not the same as saying the use of such instruments is wrong.

I'm open to discuss the reasonings on this topic and believe we don't need to enter into fighting in discussing matters such as this. I have my own views on how I believe musical instruments can be used to the glory of God and how they are not.

Well, off for my daily ride in the country. I'll come back to this later if this thread is active.

[Ken]

My own opinions on this subject are not in line with some conservative Anabaptist thinking but they are somewhat thought-out.

First I would draw a very big distinction between music in church and outside of church. They are two separate things.

Within church I think music should take more of a background supporting role. Personally I am not a good singer. I can't carry a tune. So hymns are not a favorite part of church services to me, nor is singing in general. I can play the piano somewhat serviceably but that is because someone else tuned the piano and I only have to press the right keys to play in tune. But sitting or standing through lots of hymns in the hymnal and not being much of a participant has always been my least favorite part of church. When I was young it was torture.

It personally rubs me a little bit the wrong way when church services become performance oriented. And that can happen with or without musical instruments. If solo vocalists or a vocal quartet is performing. Or if someone with an electric guitar is performing. The focus is often on the performance of the individuals and we are to admire their talent rather than be contemplative and think about why we are there. Everyone has talents. Some are great woodworkers, others are great teachers or farmers. And others are great musicians. I don't really thing church is the place to celebrate the individual talents of just a few.

That said, I do appreciate when sacred music accompanies church in the background. This is more common in Catholic and Episcopal churches where there are often choirs, organists, or even string instrumentalists playing music in the background before the service and during periods of transition. For me that kind of sets the tone to walk in and hear a string quartet playing Bach or some other sacred piece in the background. And it puts me in a contemplative mood where my mind can more easily empty of my daily obsessions and listen to what is said. On the other hand, I very much DISLIKE the performance-oriented shows that so many big mega-churches in the south put on with lights, performers faces projected around on big screen TVs, and playing modern rock music with a Christian flair. It isn't about the fact that they are holding musical instruments but about the fact that it is a performance. An acapella choir with soloists might be as equally performance-oriented without a single musical instrument. That is certainly the case in many predominantly Black churches with their gospel performances.

Outside of church I very much enjoy music as an art form just like painting, sculpture, literature, drams architecture, the culinary arts, and every other form of human artistic expression. I just don't think church is a concert hall any more than it is a playhouse, art gallery, or 3-star restaurant. Or, more precisely, I don't object to church buildings being used for any of those things but I don't think they really belong in church services themselves.

[Josh]

I like to see music “democratised” where most people know how to sing and feel confident signing in a group or at home with their families. It takes work and it seems also take keeping your guard up against recorded music and noise and instruments to maintain an entire community like that.

Otherwise only the “musically talented” end up knowing how to sing.

[Ken]

I like to see music “democratised” where most people know how to sing and feel confident signing in a group or at home with their families. It takes work and it seems also take keeping your guard up against recorded music and noise and instruments to maintain an entire community like that.

Otherwise only the “musically talented” end up knowing how to sing.

Before the early 20th century and the advent of recorded music and radio, playing music and singing at home and in the family was the norm. For example, in the early 1900s there were over 300 piano manufacturers in the US manufacturing over 300,000 pianos per year. In 1923 piano sales peaked at 350,000. By 1929 piano sales had fallen by more than half to 131,000. A trend that almost perfectly mirrors the rise in radio and phonographs during that same time period in the 1920s. Today we are down to just two American piano makers: Steinway and Mason & Hamlin and the number of pianos sold in the US every year are in the 20-30,000 range or less than 10% of what were sold a century ago. People can't even give away old pianos these days. Craigslist in every city has ads for free pianos....just haul the thing away and you can have it for free.

Poetry is another lost art form. Watching movies set in the 1800s it strikes me how much more of a central role poetry played in life. People recited poetry at dinner and during gatherings. Their own and memorized works by the masters. Today it is a lost art now that we are bombarded with electronic media at every turn. And I have never in my life been to any sort of social event where people recited poetry.

Personally I don't think it is about the musical instruments. It is about making music as opposed to listening to it. Early pioneers on the Oregon Trail literally dragged pianos and other musical instruments with them in covered wagons across the great plains and rocky mountains. Not because they were virtuoso musicians. But because they wanted music in their homes. So I don't think there is any distinction between making music with your vocal chords or with a different musical instrument. The key is MAKING the music rather than listening to recordings. And I don't think there it is more "pure" or Biblical to make music by singing as opposed to instruments. The New Testament neither recommends nor discourages musical instruments. And the Old Testament has plenty of examples of music made with instruments. The voice is just another instrument. And instruments have been around since the Bronze Age and before.

[Sudsy]

My own opinions on this subject are not in line with some conservative Anabaptist thinking but they are somewhat thought-out.

First I would draw a very big distinction between music in church and outside of church. They are two separate things.

Within church I think music should take more of a background supporting role. Personally I am not a good singer. I can't carry a tune. So hymns are not a favorite part of church services to me, nor is singing in general. I can play the piano somewhat serviceably but that is because someone else tuned the piano and I only have to press the right keys to play in tune. But sitting or standing through lots of hymns in the hymnal and not being much of a participant has always been my least favorite part of church. When I was young it was torture.

It personally rubs me a little bit the wrong way when church services become performance oriented. And that can happen with or without musical instruments. If solo vocalists or a vocal quartet is performing. Or if someone with an electric guitar is performing. The focus is often on the performance of the individuals and we are to admire their talent rather than be contemplative and think about why we are there. Everyone has talents. Some are great woodworkers, others are great teachers or farmers. And others are great musicians. I don't really thing church is the place to celebrate the individual talents of just a few.

That said, I do appreciate when sacred music accompanies church in the background. This is more common in Catholic and Episcopal churches where there are often choirs, organists, or even string instrumentalists playing music in the background before the service and during periods of transition. For me that kind of sets the tone to walk in and hear a string quartet playing Bach or some other sacred piece in the background. And it puts me in a contemplative mood where my mind can more easily empty of my daily obsessions and listen to what is said. On the other hand, I very much DISLIKE the performance-oriented shows that so many big mega-churches in the south put on with lights, performers faces projected around on big screen TVs, and playing modern rock music with a Christian flair. It isn't about the fact that they are holding musical instruments but about the fact that it is a performance. An acapella choir with soloists might be as equally performance-oriented without a single musical instrument. That is certainly the case in many predominantly Black churches with their gospel performances.

Outside of church I very much enjoy music as an art form just like painting, sculpture, literature, drams architecture, the culinary arts, and every other form of human artistic expression. I just don't think church is a concert hall any more than it is a playhouse, art gallery, or 3-star restaurant. Or, more precisely, I don't object to church buildings being used for any of those things but I don't think they really belong in church services themselves.

What I underlined especially brought back some memories. I remember when there were those in the MB church I attended that challenged the latest music practises as being more of a performance. The pastor was quite put off by this and in his Sunday sermon made his position quite clear that yes it was a performance, a performance unto God. Wasn't long after this that a number of life long MBs moved on to an Evangelical Baptist church that was keeping to a more conservative style of music. There were other issues they had but this music one was a biggee.

As you said, any style of music can be performance-oriented with or without instruments. Performance-oriented as in the music itself being the main focus and not the words that go with it. The latest practise I see happening now at that MB church is periods in the singing where it is all instrumental which, to me, crosses the line into entertaining. But perhaps to others it is legitimate mood setting.

But looking back on my early Pentecostal years it was quite common for the piano player and sometimes other instruments to play hymns as people were coming into the church. These I appreciated as I knew the words to these hymns and it did help me to get focused on worship.

I have heard it said that since the Revelation speaks often of the use of musical instruments in heaven, it will likely be more of an adjustment for those who don't use them now than for those who do. Perhaps.