Musical Instruments

General Christian Theology
Neto
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Re: Musical Instruments

Post by Neto »

mike wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 11:08 am ....
There are potential issues of pride and professionalism harming worship music, both acapella and otherwise.
....
A cappella worship is not a hill I would die on, but I do think there are some good values associated with it.
In the MB congregation I grew up in, in the early years the only instrument regularly used was a piano. (Later an organ was added, but often was not used. Guitars, harmonicas, accordion, wind instruments, etc. were used on special Sunday evening services, and guitars were used a lot in our youth meetings.)

So when I came into the Swiss Brethren type of 'conservative' setting, I was very 'taken' with acapella. I had participated in our church choir back home, and had learned enough to be able to follow another man who was singing close to me where I was standing. I really enjoyed acapella singing, just not so much when it did not involve audience participation. (Too much like performance.) As other forms of singing and music came into use in our congregation here in Holmes County, although I agreed with those who wanted to keep to the acapella singing, I began to sense a great deal of pride associated with it. It was like the vague sense of 'disapproval' I felt about performances in acapella, where the human voice was forefront - that uneasy feeling spread to most acapella singing. Maybe that was a wrong reaction, but I wanted to shy away from things that create pride, and that's a good deal of what I saw. So to be completely open about it, I now prefer just simple accompaniment, such as a non-electronic piano only.

Since I'm doing this spin off on pride, I'll also say that not all solo music gives me that discomfort. Growing up we had solos, trios, quartets, etc. as "special numbers" as a common part of our Sunday morning services. In fact, it was a woman singing a solo that gave me my first deep enthusiasm for singing - she so totally entered into the song, the emotion of praise, that I saw that singing was something much, much more than "just a normal part of the service".

Can accapella singing be done w/o the pride? Certainly. (One totally off-topic comment about visiting choruses - If you want to do an ethnic song, do it the way the culture out of which the song came would do it. If you cannot pull it off, then give it up & just sing your own culture's songs. Yes, I thinking specifically of "Negro Spirituals". Don't try to "white-ize" them. Something just rises up in me when I hear that.)
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Congregation: Gospel Haven Mennonite Fellowship, Benton, Ohio (Holmes Co.) a split from Beachy-Amish Mennonite.
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Praxis+Theodicy
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Re: Musical Instruments

Post by Praxis+Theodicy »

Josh wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 12:13 pm Having spent most of my life around Christian circles infested with worship teams, instruments, bands, drumsets, electric guitars, and laptops on stage to generate "electronica" "music", I am very glad to be in a place that is free of those things.

But what doesn't make sense is the conservative Mennonite position that it's fine to listen to recordings of other people's church services with instruments in them; it's fine to have instruments at home; but for some odd reason we should still try to have acapella services at church.
Do you believe it is wrong for a Christian to enjoy ANY form of entertainment or art? Is it okay to do a jigsaw puzzle? Is it okay to read a poem about a field of tulips? Is it okay to appreciate an oil painting of a field of tulips? Is it okay to put a child on your knee and tell him a story from your childhood? Is it okay to read a picture book? Is it okay to build a sandcastle?

If any one of these things are reasonably appropriate things for a Christian to do, the next question is, "is it appropriate during a corporate worship service?"
There are probably things that Christians can freely enjoy in a responsible, appropriate manner, in their home, etc. which don't really have a place in a corporate worship gathering.

If your problem is that you just find certain kinds of music distasteful (as evidenced by your scare quotes), that's okay, but that has to do with subjective taste, not objective theology, and shouldn't be applied to "Christians" in general.
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Josh
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Re: Musical Instruments

Post by Josh »

mike wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 12:20 pm What you call "some odd reason" is actually some good values, one or two of which I alluded to above.
Yet it's not really a biblically supported reason, which means it doesn't last - eventually, the pressure to have instruments in the church building will show up, since everyone already listens to large amounts of contemporary Christian music, possibly on the radio on the way into church. And since biblical injunctions against instruments have been ignored, there is no solid biblical case to be made for keeping the instruments out. So the instruments show up, start being used, and acapella singing gradually dies off.

Now, I don't agree with being a biblical fundamentalist, but a typical type of church in this transitional phase has already ceded that ground. So it will happen, sooner or later.
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mike
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Re: Musical Instruments

Post by mike »

Josh wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 2:32 pm
mike wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 12:20 pm What you call "some odd reason" is actually some good values, one or two of which I alluded to above.
Yet it's not really a biblically supported reason, which means it doesn't last - eventually, the pressure to have instruments in the church building will show up, since everyone already listens to large amounts of contemporary Christian music, possibly on the radio on the way into church. And since biblical injunctions against instruments have been ignored, there is no solid biblical case to be made for keeping the instruments out. So the instruments show up, start being used, and acapella singing gradually dies off.

Now, I don't agree with being a biblical fundamentalist, but a typical type of church in this transitional phase has already ceded that ground. So it will happen, sooner or later.
What are these biblical injunctions against instruments that you speak of?
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Valerie
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Re: Musical Instruments

Post by Valerie »

The very first time I heard a position against instruments in a church was from a oerson who came from a Protestant denomination that went so far as to say it was evil. That really threw me since I was familiar with the Scriptures where God gave the skill to create and play musical instruments. And the Psalm 150 mentioned was a very uplifting encouragement to praise Him with the instruments. It gave me the impression that God Himself enjoyed it. Because I gave my heart to the Lord at the very church where contemporary Christian music had its beginning, I was familiar with how this developed. In those days when hippies and rock & rollers left their drug culture & sin to follow Christ, they then wanted to play their instruments and write songs of praise. They would give the glory to God. They were so joyful about their. New life. I remember at that church where it all started, the pastor, well known Chuck Smith struggled at first allowing all these instruments but when they would use Psalm 150 as the Scriptureti them they were doing what they thought pleased the Lord. Even still at that time Sunday mornings wete still for hymns & piano.
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Josh
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Re: Musical Instruments

Post by Josh »

mike wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 2:41 pm What are these biblical injunctions against instruments that you speak of?
We don't see them spoken positively of in the New Testament at all. Just a few comparisons of a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal as a bad thing, or a bugle that makes an indistinct sound and so troops don't prepare for battle. On the contrary, we do see the disciples singing a hymn on the Mount of Olives and otherwise see many examples of Christians singing songs and spiritual songs.

I would agree that a biblical fundamentalist isn't going to find the prohibition there, but I'm not a biblical fundamentalist. The trouble is, anyone who is... is eventually going to have drum sets and electric guitars in their worship service. (Not that I personally mind; I really enjoy a good worship leader shredding out on the electric guitar a Jeremy Riddle song whilst the vocalist croons like Steffany Gritzinger.)
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Valerie
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Re: Musical Instruments

Post by Valerie »

mike wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 11:08 am I am not opposed to musical instruments, neither is my conservative Mennonite conference, which allows them except for official church functions. Folks often play together as families, or occasionally organize a group and give public performances. I don't believe there is any explicit biblical teaching against their use for worship or recreation or entertainment.

That said, there are some valuable things about a capella singing in public worship, such as developing and maintaining a broader level of singing ability in the group. There is often a huge difference in the general singing ability of a group of people used to choral singing compared to a church where a worship team or pianist and choir lead the music. Singing in harmony is a learned skill that begins at home and is developed in school and church, and it just isn't that big a priority for many Christian cultures these days. Individuals may pursue that interest, but I would argue that many/most churches as a group would be fairly lost musically without the crutch of a band, piano, or worship leader & guitar.

I feel like our acapella music and singing ability could always use improvement, but I think that instruments would make the problems worse. Acapella music in church is generally more participatory than accompanied music, and instruments can drown out vocals pretty easily.

There is instrumental/vocal music that is fully worshipful. There are potential issues of pride and professionalism harming worship music, both acapella and otherwise. There are some real benefits in learning to play instruments. I've been part of a church where we occasionally had instruments in the service, such as a Christmas service where various people contributed special songs and readings, and with special singing groups that came in. They were all good, enjoyable, and worshipful experiences.

A cappella worship is not a hill I would die on, but I do think there are some good values associated with it.
The first time we attended a Charity affiliation Church when the acapella singing began in the congregation I thought surely these were angels singing g. It was so beautiful that I felt my own voice would ruin it.
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Josh
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Re: Musical Instruments

Post by Josh »

Valerie wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 5:15 pm The first time we attended a Charity affiliation Church when the acapella singing began in the congregation I thought surely these were angels singing g. It was so beautiful that I felt my own voice would ruin it.
Most of the historic Charity churches have worship teams now. Do you think that's an improvement? Acapella singing is basically going extinct in the younger generation.
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Musical Instruments

Post by ken_sylvania »

Valerie wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 5:11 pm The very first time I heard a position against instruments in a church was from a oerson who came from a Protestant denomination that went so far as to say it was evil. That really threw me since I was familiar with the Scriptures where God gave the skill to create and play musical instruments. And the Psalm 150 mentioned was a very uplifting encouragement to praise Him with the instruments. It gave me the impression that God Himself enjoyed it. Because I gave my heart to the Lord at the very church where contemporary Christian music had its beginning, I was familiar with how this developed. In those days when hippies and rock & rollers left their drug culture & sin to follow Christ, they then wanted to play their instruments and write songs of praise. They would give the glory to God. They were so joyful about their. New life. I remember at that church where it all started, the pastor, well known Chuck Smith struggled at first allowing all these instruments but when they would use Psalm 150 as the Scriptureti them they were doing what they thought pleased the Lord. Even still at that time Sunday mornings wete still for hymns & piano.
Didn't the Eastern Orthodox Church traditionally prohibit the use of mechanical music makers in the church?
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Valerie
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Re: Musical Instruments

Post by Valerie »

ken_sylvania wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 5:20 pm
Valerie wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 5:11 pm The very first time I heard a position against instruments in a church was from a oerson who came from a Protestant denomination that went so far as to say it was evil. That really threw me since I was familiar with the Scriptures where God gave the skill to create and play musical instruments. And the Psalm 150 mentioned was a very uplifting encouragement to praise Him with the instruments. It gave me the impression that God Himself enjoyed it. Because I gave my heart to the Lord at the very church where contemporary Christian music had its beginning, I was familiar with how this developed. In those days when hippies and rock & rollers left their drug culture & sin to follow Christ, they then wanted to play their instruments and write songs of praise. They would give the glory to God. They were so joyful about their. New life. I remember at that church where it all started, the pastor, well known Chuck Smith struggled at first allowing all these instruments but when they would use Psalm 150 as the Scriptureti them they were doing what they thought pleased the Lord. Even still at that time Sunday mornings wete still for hymns & piano.
Didn't the Eastern Orthodox Church traditionally prohibit the use of mechanical music makers in the church?
Yes and still do. Of course they don't always use Biblical support as they also place emphasis on "tradition" of the early Church. However outside the Liturgical service they enjoy learning & playing all sorts of instruments.
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