Musical Instruments

[Bootstrap]

Whatever helps people worship is good. The relevant measure is the quality of the worship.

I like a capella worship. I like classical accompaniment. I like guitar played well. I hate any kind of singing or playing or posturing that takes the focus off of God and turns it to the musicians or worship leader.

Traditional hymns with sparse and subtle guitar can be very nice, and a lot easier for a group that wasn't raised on traditional hymns. I do that frequently in church. And there are also some good modern worship songs. But a capella has a special place ....

[ken_sylvania]

I'm not familiar with the Mennonite Hymnal.
I didn't mean to imply that Hymns of the Church is heavy music. I actually very much enjoy singing out of it, especially for family singing, youth singing, or song service. It's hard for me to put into words why I wouldn't choose it for regular worship service - it just doesn't seem to have as good a selection of the stately, majestic hymns maybe.

Interesting. I would have thought the opposite. Our bishop said that HOTC really has a lot of the modern fast songs (his congregation uses HOTC). It had me scratching my head. Much of our impression might come from the songs that song leaders actually choose in the service, and think about how few songs we actually sing relative to the number that are in the books. In our church, I would estimate this is about what we sing in a year:

Sunday: 4 songs x 52 = 208
Wednesday: 2 songs x 12 = 24
Sunday night: 2 songs x 12 = 24
Special meetings & events: = 30

Total = 300, shall we say.

And a lot of these are certainly repeats. It could take 2-5 years to sing through an entire songbook, depending on the book, if we would decide to sing every hymn in the book. In my opinion, we should sing more than we do, but that's where we are.

If a song leader favors a certain style of song, and primarily leads those, it probably lends to impressions about a book that aren't entirely accurate.

Sounds like I agree with your bishop!
You're probably right though about the role that the song leader has in forming people's impression of a book, especially if that is the main exposure a particular person has to that book.

Possibly part of the reason that I tend to think HOTC has more fast, lively songs is that when a group of young people gets together to sing, there can be a tendency to sing those "different" songs that they don't sing regularly at church. So that's the type of songs I would more likely sing from HOTC.

[Josh]

Maybe this is descriptive of a very small subset of groups, however, I find that when people learn instruments they actually become much better singers and musicians. And the best singing, acapella groups, almost without fail, also have myriads of instrument players in their groups (like Mike), they just don't use them in church. However, there isn't a causal relationship of any sort.

Holdemans have a lot of very good singers, and as a rule, nobody learns instruments. (Compliance with this is quite high, probably because it's pretty hard to hide a piano, and it also takes a great deal of time and learning a skill to be able to play an instrument decently.)

Causation is mostly likely getting mixed up with correlation in a small subset of groups. But there is a reason that say Handel's music, all choruses four part, are not in fact acapella or such that folks who sing that type of music can't also sing in 4 part well. Same with say the Lyrica Sacra influence here at Lancaster - it doesn't dilute the four part singing, but enhances it.

No, I'm not mixing them up at all. Acapella singing is basically extinct outside of Anabaptist circles plus Church of Christ. And transitional Anabaptist groups tend to lose acapella singing as they transition. This is painfully obvious if you spend time with any youth from RnOC circles, which I have been doing for the last 10 years.

My exposure to the BMA crowd is that acapella is also nearly extinct (and something youth would only do for fun if they come from a more conservative church background). It may be a hobby that a handful of people enjoy, but it is no longer something that virtually everyone knows how to do.

In our circles, we teach music in school starting from the earliest grades, families sing at home and many mothers instruct their children at home, and youth are eager to sing in groups as soon as possible. This is a deliberate decision that preserving acapella singing is more important than some phantom goal of getting good at instruments (reality is that some people are talented at it; most people aren't, and will never be more than passive consumers).

[joshuabgood]

My exposure to the BMA crowd is that acapella is also nearly extinct (and something youth would only do for fun if they come from a more conservative church background). It may be a hobby that a handful of people enjoy, but it is no longer something that virtually everyone knows how to do.

I don't think your description here matches my experience as a member (in at least 3 BMA churches)...or what I observed at EBI when my son was there.

Acapella singing is basically extinct outside of Anabaptist circles plus Church of Christ.

My point is that acapella singing isn't necessary for singing parts well, and doesn't preclude congregations that sing well. I have been in a number of reformed churches that sing really well...as well as black churches that sing really well.

I don't value acapella for acapella's sake. And I don't think it is causally related to high quality singing or musicianship. I have also been in quite a number of acapella congregations where the singing was a bit...shall we say, mediocre.

[Josh]

What I don't think is good is a transition to the modern rock-band worship format (which is what virtually every type of Christian denomination is transitioning to). Even Catholic parishes now will have a guy get up and strum a guitar.

[joshuabgood]

What I don't think is good is a transition to the modern rock-band worship format (which is what virtually every type of Christian denomination is transitioning to). Even Catholic parishes now will have a guy get up and strum a guitar.

I was in a Catholic church not long ago and there was a drum set off to the side, along with with numerous other instruments...but, as a guitarist and part-time worship leader, I probably have a different perspective on modern worship music then you do - based on what I am gleaning from the tone of your comments.

[Josh]

I was in a Catholic church not long ago and there was a drum set off to the side, along with with numerous other instruments...but, as a guitarist and part-time worship leader, I probably have a different perspective on modern worship music then you do - based on what I am gleaning from the tone of your comments.

Also a musician and former member of various worship teams.

As I stated elsewhere, personally, I enjoy the style of Hillsong or Bethel best. But I haven't seen spiritual fruit coming out of the modern worship style, where as I see significant fruit from preserving acapella music and ensuring every member sings.

[Valerie]

To an unbeliever, I would just say Jesus gives us freedom. All the groups make their decisions seeking the glory of God. We mostly still love and accept one another, but Christians aren't perfect.

I kept thinking about this answer- I suppose as long as we frame it that way without taking a position that one way is "right" and one way is "wrong" and make it a matter of personal preference in where we fell9wship it is not a dogmatic issue

Every now and again a friend of ours who passed a few years ago comes to mind. He had become a Christian in his 50s but then found that he was discouraged with so many churches he kept asking "how so you know whose right?" and eventually this caused him to not attend anywhere. I was curious what Scriptural grounds for strict positions there are either way-but especially against if we were to "explain ourselves" to someone seeking the youth about it.

It seems I conclude as in many other topics the Reformation Era sent Christianity in many directions about many practices - and leave it at that.

[ohio jones]

Josh, the pendulum swings both directions. After a few years of band accompaniment for practically everything, we now have at least two songs from one of the hymnals, unaccompanied, and often one or two accompanied, plus several Getty-style modern hymns. True, there's still the occasional cringe CCM, such as John Mark McMillan a few weeks ago.

Meanwhile at RBC, hymn sings from the Mennonite Hymnal are "cool" and "we should do this more often."

[Josh]

Josh, the pendulum swings both directions. After a few years of band accompaniment for practically everything, we now have at least two songs from one of the hymnals, unaccompanied, and often one or two accompanied, plus several Getty-style modern hymns. True, there's still the occasional cringe CCM, such as John Mark McMillan a few weeks ago.

Meanwhile at RBC, hymn sings from the Mennonite Hymnal are "cool" and "we should do this more often."

That's good to hear, but I do consider that you seem to be on the most conservative end of your denomination (albeit it appears I myself am as well, although I'm not necessarily excited about our "conservatism" such as not allowing the youth to gather on Sunday evenings when virtually every other congregation encourages the youth to gather then to sing off the projector or something).

The pendulum, however, seems to only swing in one direction in my corner of Ohio. (Perhaps it's a catapult out here, not a pendulum?)