Musical Instruments

General Christian Theology
RZehr
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Re: Musical Instruments

Post by RZehr »

Ken wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2023 1:15 pm My own opinions on this subject are not in line with some conservative Anabaptist thinking but they are somewhat thought-out.

First I would draw a very big distinction between music in church and outside of church. They are two separate things.

Within church I think music should take more of a background supporting role. Personally I am not a good singer. I can't carry a tune. So hymns are not a favorite part of church services to me, nor is singing in general. I can play the piano somewhat serviceably but that is because someone else tuned the piano and I only have to press the right keys to play in tune. But sitting or standing through lots of hymns in the hymnal and not being much of a participant has always been my least favorite part of church. When I was young it was torture.

It personally rubs me a little bit the wrong way when church services become performance oriented. And that can happen with or without musical instruments. If solo vocalists or a vocal quartet is performing. Or if someone with an electric guitar is performing. The focus is often on the performance of the individuals and we are to admire their talent rather than be contemplative and think about why we are there. Everyone has talents. Some are great woodworkers, others are great teachers or farmers. And others are great musicians. I don't really thing church is the place to celebrate the individual talents of just a few.

That said, I do appreciate when sacred music accompanies church in the background. This is more common in Catholic and Episcopal churches where there are often choirs, organists, or even string instrumentalists playing music in the background before the service and during periods of transition. For me that kind of sets the tone to walk in and hear a string quartet playing Bach or some other sacred piece in the background. And it puts me in a contemplative mood where my mind can more easily empty of my daily obsessions and listen to what is said. On the other hand, I very much DISLIKE the performance-oriented shows that so many big mega-churches in the south put on with lights, performers faces projected around on big screen TVs, and playing modern rock music with a Christian flair. It isn't about the fact that they are holding musical instruments but about the fact that it is a performance. An acapella choir with soloists might be as equally performance-oriented without a single musical instrument. That is certainly the case in many predominantly Black churches with their gospel performances.

Outside of church I very much enjoy music as an art form just like painting, sculpture, literature, drams architecture, the culinary arts, and every other form of human artistic expression. I just don't think church is a concert hall any more than it is a playhouse, art gallery, or 3-star restaurant. Or, more precisely, I don't object to church buildings being used for any of those things but I don't think they really belong in church services themselves.
:clap: Amen on the underlined.
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RZehr
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Re: Musical Instruments

Post by RZehr »

Ken wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2023 1:59 pm
Before the early 20th century and the advent of recorded music and radio, playing music and singing at home and in the family was the norm. For example, in the early 1900s there were over 300 piano manufacturers in the US manufacturing over 300,000 pianos per year. In 1923 piano sales peaked at 350,000. By 1929 piano sales had fallen by more than half to 131,000. A trend that almost perfectly mirrors the rise in radio and phonographs during that same time period in the 1920s. Today we are down to just two American piano makers: Steinway and Mason & Hamlin and the number of pianos sold in the US every year are in the 20-30,000 range or less than 10% of what were sold a century ago. People can't even give away old pianos these days. Craigslist in every city has ads for free pianos....just haul the thing away and you can have it for free.

Poetry is another lost art form. Watching movies set in the 1800s it strikes me how much more of a central role poetry played in life. People recited poetry at dinner and during gatherings. Their own and memorized works by the masters. Today it is a lost art now that we are bombarded with electronic media at every turn. And I have never in my life been to any sort of social event where people recited poetry.

Personally I don't think it is about the musical instruments. It is about making music as opposed to listening to it. Early pioneers on the Oregon Trail literally dragged pianos and other musical instruments with them in covered wagons across the great plains and rocky mountains. Not because they were virtuoso musicians. But because they wanted music in their homes. So I don't think there is any distinction between making music with your vocal chords or with a different musical instrument. The key is MAKING the music rather than listening to recordings. And I don't think there it is more "pure" or Biblical to make music by singing as opposed to instruments. The New Testament neither recommends nor discourages musical instruments. And the Old Testament has plenty of examples of music made with instruments. The voice is just another instrument. And instruments have been around since the Bronze Age and before.
I appreciate this. Very good insight.
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Ken
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Re: Musical Instruments

Post by Ken »

Sudsy wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2023 3:00 pmAs you said, any style of music can be performance-oriented with or without instruments. Performance-oriented as in the music itself being the main focus and not the words that go with it. The latest practise I see happening now at that MB church is periods in the singing where it is all instrumental which, to me, crosses the line into entertaining. But perhaps to others it is legitimate mood setting.
I'm talking more about church performance in which the PERFORMERS are the main focus. Which sometimes seems to be the case especially in modern churches. And that can be choral or instrumental.

I don't think one needs words to make music sacred. There has been a lot of sacred instrumental music over the years which I appreciate for what it is. Both purely instrumental and choral. And some of the most famous choral works like Bach's Mass in B Minor (YouTube it) are in Latin anyway and typically sung that way.

Plus I appreciate hearing instrumental versions of familiar hymns, especially this time of year.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Sudsy
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Re: Musical Instruments

Post by Sudsy »

Ken wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2023 4:33 pm
Sudsy wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2023 3:00 pmAs you said, any style of music can be performance-oriented with or without instruments. Performance-oriented as in the music itself being the main focus and not the words that go with it. The latest practise I see happening now at that MB church is periods in the singing where it is all instrumental which, to me, crosses the line into entertaining. But perhaps to others it is legitimate mood setting.
I'm talking more about church performance in which the PERFORMERS are the main focus. Which sometimes seems to be the case especially in modern churches. And that can be choral or instrumental.

I don't think one needs words to make music sacred. There has been a lot of sacred instrumental music over the years which I appreciate for what it is. Both purely instrumental and choral. And some of the most famous choral works like Bach's Mass in B Minor (YouTube it) are in Latin anyway and typically sung that way.

Plus I appreciate hearing instrumental versions of familiar hymns, especially this time of year.
I guess it depends on what one believes 'sacred' stands for with regard to music. Myself, I regard sacred music as music that has to do with God and can also be considered 'holy music'. It was mainly written for church settings. Other music I would consider secular. If I know the words to the music that is about God, then even though it may be presented 100% instrumental, I consider this as sacred if the lyrics are what stands out to me more than the instruments.

I do experience some music that affects my emotions but I don't consider as sacred. There are, for example, love songs that to me are very emotional but not sacred. I appreciate various types of instrumentals but not because they draw me closer to God.

I, too, enjoy hearing instrumental hymns played at Christmas time and often sing along trying to remember all the verses.
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