mike wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 10:21 am
JohnHurt wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 9:43 am
Exactly how and when did Paul become an "apostle"?
We are not told precisely how or when Paul received that designation, which is simply a term meaning "a delegate, an ambassador of the gospel, or one that is sent." Paul was called by God in such a way that the early church viewed him as an apostle, a term which was not restricted to the twelve disciples of Jesus. If the disciples of Christ and the church accepted Paul as an apostle, then so do I. Barnabas was also spoken of as an apostle. We don't know how or when he received that designation, either. That must mean, according to you, that he is illegitimate also.
At the time of Acts 15:22,Paul and Barnabas were not called "apostles" , but were subordinate to the 12 Apostles. So Christ did not make Paul into an "apostle" in Acts 9 outside Damascus. Paul must have declared himself an "apostle" at a later date.
In 2 Cor 8:23 and Phil 2:25, the word "messenger" is "apostle". So in the original Greek, Paul is telling you that Titus and Epaphroditus are also "apostles", sent to these churches by "Paul", not Christ.
Christ did not call Titus or Epaphroditus to be Apostles, as I cannot find them in the list of the 12 Apostles in Matthew 10:2-4. To me, it looks like Paul is ordaining these new "apostles" from the ranks of his followers. What do you think?
Paul has set up a new church hierarchy, and gave some of those men a title of "apostle" that puts them at the very top of the church:
1 Cor 12:(28) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Christ said there should be no church hierarchy as we are all servants. (Luke 22:24-27)
Christ said there should be no church titles, because we are all servants. (Matt 23:8-11)
This contradicts what Paul said.
Christ also said that His 12 Apostles will sit on 12 Thrones, judging the 12 Tribes of Israel (Matt 19:28, Luke 22:14,30)
Revelation 21:14 tells us that the heavenly Jerusalem has 12 foundations, with the names of the 12 Apostles written on them.
This means there can only be 12 Apostles, and no more.
Acts 1:21-22 tells us that to be an Apostle, you had to be a witness of Christ from His Baptism until His Resurrection:
Acts 1:(21) Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
(22) Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
This requirement to be a witness of Christ from His Baptism until His Resurrection disqualifies Paul, Titus, and Epaphroditus from ever being a true "apostle" of Christ, because they weren't followers of Christ from the beginning of His ministry.
So apparently, there are two churches: One set up by Christ with no church hierarchy or titles, - that has only 12 Apostles, and another "church" set up by Paul that has as many "apostles" as you can shake a stick at, as well as popes, cardinals, bishops, pastors, preachers, ministers, elders, deacons, etc.
Yes. Two churches. And here is how you can find out which one you are in:
One way Paul "proves" he is an "apostle" in your church is that you are listening to him:
1 Cor 9:(2) If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.
So if you are listening to Paul and following Paul's doctrines, then Paul must really be an "apostle" in your church.
Paul is also telling you he is not lying about being an "apostle" in your church:
1 Tim 2:(7) Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ,
and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
Paul is very clear that he doesn't lie:
Rom 9:(1) I say the truth in Christ,
I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 Cor 11:(31) The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that
I lie not.
Gal 1:(20) Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God,
I lie not.
So who are you going to believe? Christ, or Paul? One of them is lying.
Christ said that there are only 12 Apostles, and Paul is claiming to be "Number 13", we just aren't sure where, when, or how he became "#13". And Paul is also making his buddies into "apostles" too, so that means there ares at least 15 "apostles" and rising. Is there an upper limit? I mean, would 147 "apostles" of Paul be too much? We probably have more than that now.
And do these new "apostles" of Paul, do they get to set church policy, and make up their own new church doctrines, or speak "ex cathedra" like the Pope? Wouldn't that be following the doctrines of men that Christ condemned? Matt 15:9
So there are two churches:
One is led by Christ, has no church hierarchy, and has only 12 Apostles who are instructed by Christ to teach only the Doctrines of Christ. Matt 28:20
This church teaches the Salvation that Christ taught, that we are saved by keeping the 10 Commandments (Matt 19:16-19), and other acts of obedience to the doctrines of Christ.
The second church is led by men, like Paul, the Pope, Luther, Calvin, and many others. This church has a hierarchy, is saved by keeping a thought in their head which they call "faith" (Eph 2:8), and they have no problem with 13, 14, 15, or 256 "apostles", as long as these "apostles" or "whatever title they have" - can make up new man-made doctrines, like Transubstantiation, Infant Baptism, Original Sin, Papal Infallibility, etc.
This second church sits on seven hills, where it originated, and gave birth to many daughters, which are the denominations we see today. I wouldn't be "caught dead" in this church or its daughters. Nor should anyone else.
But there has always been a true church.
And here is the true church:
Rev 14:(12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
This is their reward:
Rev 22:(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
And here is who persecutes them:
Rev 12:(17) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
I think having the testimony and faith of Jesus Christ is just as important as keeping the Commandments. What do you think?
Christ has told us to only teach His Doctrines:
Matt 28:(20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
So when we break this clear instruction from Christ, and teach the doctrines of men, we put ourselves into one or the other of these two different churches.
Blessings,
John
"He replaced the teachings of Christ with his own opinions, and gave us a religion based on the doctrines of men."