Is it ever OK to lie?

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Hats Off
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by Hats Off »

I would attempt to deflect the question and if that did not work, I would answer truthfully. I would expect that I or some other person, whether police or other person with authority would find a better solution than to lie even if meant having the perpetrator forcibly removed or confined.

In Bonhoeffer's argument I would agree that the teacher is obviously improper but rather than lying, the more proper response would be that his question is not worthy of an answer.
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Robert
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by Robert »

Jesus said let your yes be yes and no be no. Early Anabaptist were so convicted of always speaking the truth that the Anabaptist catchers learned they could just ask them.

If I was sheltering an abuse victim, which I have done before, I would not lie, but would not answer the question. I would respond with another question, or with the response "I am not gong to tell you what I know or do not know."

Just because someone asks, does not mean we have to answer.

One time Menno Simons was being hunted. He was the only early Anabaptist that had avoided capture. The authorities heard he was going to be on a stage coach. They sent people to capture him. When they got to the carriage, they asked if Menno Simons was inside. The driver called down and asked if Menno Simons was inside. They responded "No." The catchers departed. Menno Simons was the driver.

This was not a lie, but there was no reason for him to answer an incorrect question or correct them in their mistake.

This is where wisdom can guide us as we go. Honesty is very important. If we answer a question, we need to answer clearly and truthfully. If we choose not to answer, we are not lying, but choosing not to respond to a question we feel we can not answer for some reason.

Someone who abuses another will often use bully tactics. To answer their question is allowing them to bully the answer they want. By not responding or challenging their authority to question as they are is not lying, but confronting them. It can easily put us into the position of target, but is that not a good way to protect someone? A way to step into the gap for another? Sacrificial love. By not answering or challenging them, we do start to take away that person's power over others.

It is just as important to follow through with things we say we will do also. If I tell someone I will be somewhere, I need to be there. If I say I will do something, I need to follow through and do it. We all forget or make mistakes, but if we work hard to follow through with our words, those few times, others easily see as mistakes, instead of "white lies" or untruths, or they realize someone happened and maybe we need the help at that point.
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RZehr
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by RZehr »

Bonhoeffer also apparently believed it was right to kill Hitler. His position on the drunk father question is equally wrong.

We as Christians are told not to lie, and to answer truthfully. This is not dependent on the trustworthiness or integrity of the person asking the question. To say one is morally obligated to lie is to forfeit ones own trustworthiness and integrity.
Bonhoeffer wrongly ties answering truthfully, to spreading truth. But we are not under an injunction to make sure the other party has perfect understanding of the whole truth or the whole situation, which is a major distinction that he apparently misses.
If a question is asked of a Christian that would cause harm, we have a few options.
- We can truthfully answer in a helpful way that clearly defines the situation.
- We can deflect, or answer with another question, or in the manner Menno Simons did on the carriage.
- We can "open not our mouth", or choose not to answer.
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Neto
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by Neto »

Robert wrote:Jesus said let your yes be yes and no be no. Early Anabaptist were so convicted of always speaking the truth that the Anabaptist catchers learned they could just ask them.

If I was sheltering an abuse victim, which I have done before, I would not lie, but would not answer the question. I would respond with another question, or with the response "I am not gong to tell you what I know or do not know."

Just because someone asks, does not mean we have to answer.

One time Menno Simons was being hunted. He was the only early Anabaptist that had avoided capture. The authorities heard he was going to be on a stage coach. They sent people to capture him. When they got to the carriage, they asked if Menno Simons was inside. The driver called down and asked if Menno Simons was inside. They responded "No." The catchers departed. Menno Simons was the driver.

This was not a lie, but there was no reason for him to answer an incorrect question or correct them in their mistake.

This is where wisdom can guide us as we go. Honesty is very important. If we answer a question, we need to answer clearly and truthfully. If we choose not to answer, we are not lying, but choosing not to respond to a question we feel we can not answer for some reason.

Someone who abuses another will often use bully tactics. To answer their question is allowing them to bully the answer they want. By not responding or challenging their authority to question as they are is not lying, but confronting them. It can easily put us into the position of target, but is that not a good way to protect someone? A way to step into the gap for another? Sacrificial love. By not answering or challenging them, we do start to take away that person's power over others.

It is just as important to follow through with things we say we will do also. If I tell someone I will be somewhere, I need to be there. If I say I will do something, I need to follow through and do it. We all forget or make mistakes, but if we work hard to follow through with our words, those few times, others easily see as mistakes, instead of "white lies" or untruths, or they realize someone happened and maybe we need the help at that point.
I agree that the best option is the one that was not "on the table" - to refuse to answer.
[re: the story about Menno Simons, I thought that he was a passenger, and was either riding outside with the driver, or immediately stepped down out of the carriage when the 'catchers' approached, then asked the people inside if MS was there. Anyway, same idea.]
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haithabu
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by haithabu »

I agree with all these responses. Integrity begins with oneself, and I don't get a waiver just because I don't trust the integrity of the questioner.

The principle which applies here is similar to that which applies to how we treat others. We are to treat others with all courtesy and respect, not because of who or what they are, but because of who we are as children of God.

And moving from general principles to what the Bible specifically teaches, Paul writes that we owe honor and obedience to the authorities ordained by God. Presumably this includes not lying when asked a question. If Paul could say this about a system of authority which actively persecuted Christians, on what grounds can we justify disobeying this principle today?
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by Soloist »

Corrie ten boom had a story I remember reading about how her sister when asked if they were hiding Jews she said "yes they are under the table" and the Nazi laughed and didn't believe her. That always stuck with me. We also have the story about David lying as well but to assume that was positive we would have to assume anything that wasn't outright said as negative was fine. There is a lot that happened in the old testament that most of us assume would be against God or at least not approved of but wasn't expressly stated in the section.

With all that, I believe the words of Jesus without question, and from them, I speak.
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Valerie
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by Valerie »

How do you all reconcile this with Rahab? That one always perplexed me, it does seem like she was rewarded for lying and always mentioned throughout generations, and in the Lord's ancestry-(assuming it's the same Rahab?)
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by Wayne in Maine »

Erika wrote:Is it ever OK to lie?
No.
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Hats Off
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by Hats Off »

There are many stories in the Old Testament that leave me trying to understand. Solomon, the Wisest man that ever lived had 900 wives plus a number of concubines. He taxed the people heavily to pay for the temple, but at the same time he also built a house for himself and all his women.

David, a man after God's own heart, did not seem to understand his sin until it was pointed out by the prophet Nathan.

So Rahab saved the spies by deception and was rewarded for this by being included in the lineage of Jesus.

We do well to build on the teachings of Jesus and the apostles; we can not look to the Old Testament for our examples of how to live. And when men like Bonhoeffer teach us in ways that contradict the teachings of Jesus, we know who is right.
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by Josh »

Valerie wrote:How do you all reconcile this with Rahab? That one always perplexed me, it does seem like she was rewarded for lying and always mentioned throughout generations, and in the Lord's ancestry-(assuming it's the same Rahab?)
Rahab was also a prostitute, but I don't think that's a good way to earn a living..
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