Is it ever OK to lie?

[silentreader]

Further to justifying the use of untruth or deceit for the furtherance of God's purposes because of OT examples, one of the next things that could come up is the subject of *olygamy. Certainly there are numerous examples in the OT of godly men who had multiple wives. But I think we can apply the principle we find in Acts 17 where Paul is addressing the Athenians concerning idolatry, where he says...

Acts 17:29-31English Standard Version (ESV)
29 Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

I think Jesus said something to the effect of...To whom much is given, of him shall much be required. And I think that is where we find ourselves spiritually. Probably very few of us maximize the potential available to us for spiritual growth and understanding, and for which we will be to some degree accountable, probably.

[Joy]

Well, I'd been wanting to ask the interpretation/application of II Tim.3:16,17 for years, because in all the forums I've been on, there is a tendency to discount any referencing of Scripture, Genesis through Malachi. That didn't seem to be Jesus' take on the subject. Or Paul's.

[Hats Off]

Well, I'd been wanting to ask the interpretation/application of II Tim.3:16,17 for years, because in all the forums I've been on, there is a tendency to discount any referencing of Scripture, Genesis through Malachi. That didn't seem to be Jesus' take on the subject. Or Paul's.

And all the scripture Jesus and Paul had were basically Genesis through Malachi so that is what they referenced. But today we take Jesus' and the New Testament writers' words as completing scripture. So even though when Paul wrote that statement, the scriptures were limited to the OT, we feel it is good for us to apply it to the entire scriptures.

[silentreader]

Well, I'd been wanting to ask the interpretation/application of II Tim.3:16,17 for years, because in all the forums I've been on, there is a tendency to discount any referencing of Scripture, Genesis through Malachi. That didn't seem to be Jesus' take on the subject. Or Paul's.

Well, Joy, I certainly don't intend to sound as if I discount the OT, I actually spend considerable time in the OT. But we do need to consider the fact that there are many things in the OT that were pending, but are now complete or have matured in the NT. For instance, the plan of salvation, and the moral law, which is now written on our hearts, as two examples. Paul I think says somewhere of some OT historical events, that these things are written for our admonition.

[cmbl]

Paul I think says somewhere of some OT historical events, that these things are written for our admonition.

1 Corinthians 10 comes to mind. It shows how the OT is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, etc., without excusing us from accepting the sound words of our Lord Jesus and abiding in His teaching.

[Valerie]

That the Old Testament is useful for doctrine, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness does not mean we may do whatever was permitted to someone in the OT. It is an abuse of the OT to use it to justify calling Jesus "Lord, Lord," and not doing the things that he said.

I think Rahab was brought up in this thread, and how she had to lie to save the Jews- and I don't get the impression in that case that God saw that as sin. Do you see what she did as sin? It saved her entire family- as well as the Jews. Now I realize that Anabaptists don't believe in just war either, but war in the Old Testament didn't seem like sin either when it was by God's call- If there is a situation where lying would prevent murder- then lying would be the the choice that someone led of God might chose over their murder. Perhaps that sounds like rationalizing but- I'm thinking of Rahab's story with the Jews- it seemed a better plan than not lying and she it led to her salvation ultimately-

she's even mentioned in the New Testament- Hall of Faith in Hebrews:
Hebrews 11:31
By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies in peace, did not perish with those who were disobedient.

[silentreader]

That the Old Testament is useful for doctrine, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness does not mean we may do whatever was permitted to someone in the OT. It is an abuse of the OT to use it to justify calling Jesus "Lord, Lord," and not doing the things that he said.

I think Rahab was brought up in this thread, and how she had to lie to save the Jews- and I don't get the impression in that case that God saw that as sin. Do you see what she did as sin? It saved her entire family- as well as the Jews. Now I realize that Anabaptists don't believe in just war either, but war in the Old Testament didn't seem like sin either when it was by God's call- If there is a situation where lying would prevent murder- then lying would be the the choice that someone led of God might chose over their murder. Perhaps that sounds like rationalizing but- I'm thinking of Rahab's story with the Jews- it seemed a better plan than not lying and she it led to her salvation ultimately-

she's even mentioned in the New Testament- Hall of Faith in Hebrews:
Hebrews 11:31
By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies in peace, did not perish with those who were disobedient.

....and Jesus said, "....but I say unto you...."

[Valerie]

That the Old Testament is useful for doctrine, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness does not mean we may do whatever was permitted to someone in the OT. It is an abuse of the OT to use it to justify calling Jesus "Lord, Lord," and not doing the things that he said.

I think Rahab was brought up in this thread, and how she had to lie to save the Jews- and I don't get the impression in that case that God saw that as sin. Do you see what she did as sin? It saved her entire family- as well as the Jews. Now I realize that Anabaptists don't believe in just war either, but war in the Old Testament didn't seem like sin either when it was by God's call- If there is a situation where lying would prevent murder- then lying would be the the choice that someone led of God might chose over their murder. Perhaps that sounds like rationalizing but- I'm thinking of Rahab's story with the Jews- it seemed a better plan than not lying and she it led to her salvation ultimately-

she's even mentioned in the New Testament- Hall of Faith in Hebrews:
Hebrews 11:31
By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies in peace, did not perish with those who were disobedient.

....and Jesus said, "....but I say unto you...."

Jesus never denounced what Rahab did to save God's people, and her family- otherwise, she wouldn't have been mentioned in the New Testament Hall of faith for the very act of faith that led her to lie- I don't see what Jesus taught as negating this action- It's not a case where 'in the old testament it was okay to lie, but now I say unto you not to lie'. It was never taught that lying was good or encouraged in the Old Testament- and now in the New, it is not- exceptions are the purpose of this OP- and although we don't look for any exceptions, Rahab was praised for her action in the New Testament-

[ken_sylvania]

That the Old Testament is useful for doctrine, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness does not mean we may do whatever was permitted to someone in the OT. It is an abuse of the OT to use it to justify calling Jesus "Lord, Lord," and not doing the things that he said.

I think Rahab was brought up in this thread, and how she had to lie to save the Jews- and I don't get the impression in that case that God saw that as sin. Do you see what she did as sin? It saved her entire family- as well as the Jews. Now I realize that Anabaptists don't believe in just war either, but war in the Old Testament didn't seem like sin either when it was by God's call- If there is a situation where lying would prevent murder- then lying would be the the choice that someone led of God might chose over their murder. Perhaps that sounds like rationalizing but- I'm thinking of Rahab's story with the Jews- it seemed a better plan than not lying and she it led to her salvation ultimately-

she's even mentioned in the New Testament- Hall of Faith in Hebrews:
Hebrews 11:31
By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies in peace, did not perish with those who were disobedient.

That sounds like "Let us do evil, that good may come."

Notice too, that Rahab is not praised for lying - she is praised for welcoming the spies in peace. The NT has plenty to say about deceit, and lying, classifying both as works of the flesh which should be put off by the Christian. Also contains commands to speak the truth. Jesus specifically said that our "yea must be yea," and that anything other than this is evil.

If you would be willing to lie in order to prevent murder, would you be willing to lie under oath in order to prevent murder?

[Valerie]

That the Old Testament is useful for doctrine, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness does not mean we may do whatever was permitted to someone in the OT. It is an abuse of the OT to use it to justify calling Jesus "Lord, Lord," and not doing the things that he said.

I think Rahab was brought up in this thread, and how she had to lie to save the Jews- and I don't get the impression in that case that God saw that as sin. Do you see what she did as sin? It saved her entire family- as well as the Jews. Now I realize that Anabaptists don't believe in just war either, but war in the Old Testament didn't seem like sin either when it was by God's call- If there is a situation where lying would prevent murder- then lying would be the the choice that someone led of God might chose over their murder. Perhaps that sounds like rationalizing but- I'm thinking of Rahab's story with the Jews- it seemed a better plan than not lying and she it led to her salvation ultimately-

she's even mentioned in the New Testament- Hall of Faith in Hebrews:
Hebrews 11:31
By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies in peace, did not perish with those who were disobedient.

That sounds like "Let us do evil, that good may come."

Notice too, that Rahab is not praised for lying - she is praised for welcoming the spies in peace. The NT has plenty to say about deceit, and lying, classifying both as works of the flesh which should be put off by the Christian. Also contains commands to speak the truth. Jesus specifically said that our "yea must be yea," and that anything other than this is evil.

If you would be willing to lie in order to prevent murder, would you be willing to lie under oath in order to prevent murder?

I am saying that if Rahab had done anything wrong in God's eyes, that would have been made clear- in Old, or New Testament- her action included the lying, of course she wasn't praised for that part, but that part is included in her action and what good that it did- which in this case was part of God's plan- I'm not 'afraid' to acknowledge that and not using that to excuse lying. It's like the case in Corrie Ten Boom's 'The Hiding Place'. I think we will simply disagree on this- I see the murder as worse. The lying had no evil intention- in these cases- I think that God would not disagree with looking at it that way- but that's me-