Is it ever OK to lie?

General Christian Theology
Ambassador
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by Ambassador »

But is that what Jesus taught? Or the other NT writers? I think we need to be careful against saying "I think it's ok if..." When we don't see that example in scripture. The more I learn about God, the more I learn that so many of His ways are totally contrary to what our very limited minds think is the logical way things should be.
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francis
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by francis »

Ambassador wrote:But is that what Jesus taught? Or the other NT writers? I think we need to be careful against saying "I think it's ok if..." When we don't see that example in scripture. The more I learn about God, the more I learn that so many of His ways are totally contrary to what our very limited minds think is the logical way things should be.
I know what you mean, but the scriptures also teach mercy--recall the Egyptian midwives lying to hide Moses. If we look at the command to love our neighbor as ourselves and to care for others. And murder is a terrible evil, as compassionate people I feel like we should prevent it. It's one thing to contest resistance (ei killing others to somehow prevent more killing) but even though all sins are bad I know I could never betray innocents to their death simply out of principle.
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Hats Off
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by Hats Off »

I would guess that if you lied in an attempt to save an innocent and you were caught in the lie, you would wish you had been honest instead. And you can't use Old Testament examples to justify actions in this age.
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Joy
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by Joy »

Hats Off wrote:I would guess that if you lied in an attempt to save an innocent and you were caught in the lie, you would wish you had been honest instead. And you can't use Old Testament examples to justify actions in this age.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


Seems like the burden of proof would be on you to prove the last statement.
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2Tim. 3:16,17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Hats Off
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by Hats Off »

Well, using the example of what God directed David and others to do, we could argue a just war theory and write off the entire principle of non-resistance. Using the OT examples, we could justify many things that Jesus specifically taught against in the New Testament. An eye for an eye, etc became "but I say unto you". I guess on topics like lying, I feel the New Testament and the teachings of Jesus carry more weight than the examples of what God did in Old Testament times.

So do these examples qualify as "proof" for what I said in my earlier post? :oops:
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silentreader
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by silentreader »

Joy wrote:
Hats Off wrote:I would guess that if you lied in an attempt to save an innocent and you were caught in the lie, you would wish you had been honest instead. And you can't use Old Testament examples to justify actions in this age.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


Seems like the burden of proof would be on you to prove the last statement.
I probably wouldn't word it the same as HO did, but I do think there are some NT scriptures that suggest that God has a greater expectation of holiness for us in this era than what He permitted in the OT. Even some of Jesus' words in the Sermon on the Mount would suggest that, I think.
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Joy
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by Joy »

Hats Off wrote:Well, using the example of what God directed David and others to do, we could argue a just war theory and write off the entire principle of non-resistance. Using the OT examples, we could justify many things that Jesus specifically taught against in the New Testament. An eye for an eye, etc became "but I say unto you". I guess on topics like lying, I feel the New Testament and the teachings of Jesus carry more weight than the examples of what God did in Old Testament times.

So do these examples qualify as "proof" for what I said in my earlier post? :oops:
Hmm, here's a question for you, HO. What do you think the verses mean in the context of Genesis through Malachi?

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
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2Tim. 3:16,17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Hats Off
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by Hats Off »

Well obviously it means what it says. I can't argue with that. But i still stand by my earlier posts where I would feel there never is a good place or time for me to lie.
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silentreader
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by silentreader »

Hats Off wrote:Well obviously it means what it says. I can't argue with that. But i still stand by my earlier posts where I would feel there never is a good place or time for me to lie.
When using vs. 16&17 as a prooftext, it is probably better to consider them in the context of the whole chapter....
Godlessness in the Last Days
3 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, 7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. 9 But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.
All Scripture Is Breathed Out by God
10 You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, 11 my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra—which persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me. 12 Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom[a] you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.


Then, consider the OP in light of v12 "....will be persecuted"...unless you can lie your way out of it?

Also notice v15, what the sacred writings are able to do, "...make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus."
If this is the case, how then shall we speak and live?
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cmbl
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by cmbl »

That the Old Testament is useful for doctrine, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness does not mean we may do whatever was permitted to someone in the OT. It is an abuse of the OT to use it to justify calling Jesus "Lord, Lord," and not doing the things that he said.
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"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."
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