Is it ever OK to lie?

[Valerie]

Thank for the thoughts, but I don't consider that the best understanding of the issue.

Could you please explain why? Or what you are thinking about this in relation to the Scriptures you shared?

This is one of those cases where it behooves people to think more deeply about this issue, and the broader context of it in our relationship to God and his to us. I worked through this years ago, and still learn from it as I return to it on occasion. I'd only be shortcutting your path, so I'd rather pose some open questions and add biblical context.

As Merry Brown said, "preconceived notions are the locks on the door to wisdom." Working on the locks of preconceptions is a rewarding path of growth.

I was more asking the question of your issue with Hat's off's analysis- why you seem to dismiss it- I'd be interested in your thoughts about that because he seems to be applying the most common Anabaptist view- that once Jesus, God incarnate- did His 'earthly' teachings and ministry- many Old Testament teachings were changed. So I think that Hat's Off is realizing that whatever was done in the OT, is not sufficient for NT, so many things Jesus said "But now I say"-
So do you believe that we can apply such applications as your passages, to 'certain' situations today? (I'm not looking for a shortcut to my path, just wanting clarification why you dismiss Hat's Off's analysis, which would be a common Anabaptist perspective)

[follower]

Consider this postulate - there are three general classes that God uses to communicate with us. These are found in both the OT and NT.

1. He informs us before we're aware of the issue or when we first see the issue.
2. He informs us when we ask him. This can be right away, or in many cases it's after some period of time and something changes (the situation changes, or we finally change - consider Ps 73 for the latter).
3.

I left the third one blank because you might think it is "He doesn't inform us." That's in the right direction, but there's more to it than that, and that's the worthwhile thinking to do on the subject - you have to start considering the "why" for that. Consider how Jesus answered the questions about the future posed to him by the disciples - they weren't all answered the same - and also consider how the angel answered Daniel's question in chapter 12.

Job is also unique, as it is a blend of both 2 and 3.

[follower]

I was more asking the question of your issue with Hat's off's analysis- why you seem to dismiss it- I'd be interested in your thoughts about that because he seems to be applying the most common Anabaptist view- that once Jesus, God incarnate- did His 'earthly' teachings and ministry- many Old Testament teachings were changed. So I think that Hat's Off is realizing that whatever was done in the OT, is not sufficient for NT, so many things Jesus said "But now I say"-
So do you believe that we can apply such applications as your passages, to 'certain' situations today? (I'm not looking for a shortcut to my path, just wanting clarification why you dismiss Hat's Off's analysis, which would be a common Anabaptist perspective)

Thank you, I did not catch that meaning to your question.

If there weren't NT passages that also demonstrated the principle, I might agree. But as I said in my previous post above, there are some interesting ways God answers us or tells us things, and it's true in the NT as well as the OT. It's a fruitful study.

I wouldn't dismiss the OT passages quite so quickly. That falls under allowing a system to color anything you run across, and that's where preconceptions arise - and often we lose the opportunity to understand in a deeper manner. Systems of interpretation and thought are very useful - but they have their downsides as well because we can't see if our understanding is complete. When something pricks against a system we use, it's best to step back and examine it more carefully. It may well be a needed correction to a system, or some part of it.

This process of system in-breeding is common to areas of science as well as all groups descended from original Christianity - Catholic, protestant, evangelical, and anabaptist. Useful tools but difficult to grow beyond if the system is what becomes absolute.

[Valerie]

I was more asking the question of your issue with Hat's off's analysis- why you seem to dismiss it- I'd be interested in your thoughts about that because he seems to be applying the most common Anabaptist view- that once Jesus, God incarnate- did His 'earthly' teachings and ministry- many Old Testament teachings were changed. So I think that Hat's Off is realizing that whatever was done in the OT, is not sufficient for NT, so many things Jesus said "But now I say"-
So do you believe that we can apply such applications as your passages, to 'certain' situations today? (I'm not looking for a shortcut to my path, just wanting clarification why you dismiss Hat's Off's analysis, which would be a common Anabaptist perspective)

Thank you, I did not catch that meaning to your question.

If there weren't NT passages that also demonstrated the principle, I might agree. But as I said in my previous post above, there are some interesting ways God answers us or tells us things, and it's true in the NT as well as the OT. It's a fruitful study.

I wouldn't dismiss the OT passages quite so quickly. That falls under allowing a system to color anything you run across, and that's where preconceptions arise - and often we lose the opportunity to understand in a deeper manner. Systems of interpretation and thought are very useful - but they have their downsides as well because we can't see if our understanding is complete. When something pricks against a system we use, it's best to step back and examine it more carefully. It may well be a needed correction to a system, or some part of it.

This process of system in-breeding is common to areas of science as well as all groups descended from original Christianity - Catholic, protestant, evangelical, and anabaptist. Useful tools but difficult to grow beyond if the system is what becomes absolute.

I would tend to agree with you- we personally don't fit in any particular group presently so it's easier to apply what you are conveying here instead of being told what to believe (as far as interpretations & applications go, both OT & NT) but I also do not condone 'private interpretations'- we tend to believe the earliest interpretations of the Church, as opposed to those after the Reformation- I don't think God left us in the dark until then, and if He did, it certainly doesn't appear to be all straightened out by the Reformation era leaders-

[RZehr]

If you find yourself in situations dealing with sensitive, classified, confidential, secret or other restricted information classes, it becomes more common - and needed more often than Brett Harris states. This is especially true when remaining silent, or stating you will not answer a question, reveals the answer to the other party. The most common example could be considered law enforcement who are allowed to not provide information or provide untruthful statements in the course of investigations.

Are you being honest? Is this really true?

[Josh]

If you find yourself in situations dealing with sensitive, classified, confidential, secret or other restricted information classes, it becomes more common - and needed more often than Brett Harris states. This is especially true when remaining silent, or stating you will not answer a question, reveals the answer to the other party. The most common example could be considered law enforcement who are allowed to not provide information or provide untruthful statements in the course of investigations.

Are you being honest? Is this really true?

It is absolutely true, as anyone who has held even a basic secret clearance knows let alone something like TS-SCI. You can't disclose anything to the general public other than that you have a clearance; it's your job to know some secrets and to make sure they stay that way.

[RZehr]

I was trying to point out if someone believes it is okay to lie sometimes, then they could be lying at anytime.

[Josh]

I was trying to point out if someone believes it is okay to lie sometimes, then they could be lying at anytime.

Well it's now proven I lack a sense of humour. We'll need oj *and* Gene to chime in to restore the balance here.

[follower]

I was trying to point out if someone believes it is okay to lie sometimes, then they could be lying at anytime.

Which is why the reader or listener has the responsibility to verify, even if the author states he is telling the truth - something done every day in courtrooms.

[RZehr]

Numbers 23:19 says "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"
This is given in the context of God perhaps misleading Balaam and Balak. And yet he says that God doesn't lie.

We are all called to truth, and if we accept that call as Christians, then our word should not need to be verified.
In the seed industry we have Certified seed. This means that an independent party has inspected, tested, or verified that the genetics of that seed are in fact what it claims to be. Certified seed is then issued a special blue tag, a label if you will, that lets the consumer know that it is what is says it is.
When one becomes a Christian, or becomes Christlike, they are taking on a label that lets people know that their word does not need to be verified, because a Christian does not tell lies.

Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbor: for we are members one of another. - Ephesians 4:25

These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue....Proverbs 6:16-17

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. - John 8:44

I have not written unto your because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. - 1John 2:21

It seems like there is more said about not telling lies, than there are verses enjoining us to tell the truth.

Thoughts?