Is it ever OK to lie?

General Christian Theology
haithabu
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 6:11 pm
Location: Calgary
Affiliation: Missionary Church

Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by haithabu »

According to Hebrews 11:31, it wasn't Rahab's lie which saved here, it was her faith by which she welcomed the spies in peace. This faith was evidenced in her statement:
For the Lord your God is God in heaven above and on earth below!
Joshua 2:11

Sometimes God looks past the things we do to the underlying faith, as I believe He did with Jacob. So that even though Jacob was a liar, a sneak and a fraud God could still say of him "Jacob have I loved..."

http://foreverriver.blogspot.ca/2010/08 ... acter.html
0 x
Valerie
Posts: 5309
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:59 am
Location: Medina OH
Affiliation: non-denominational

Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by Valerie »

Josh wrote:
Valerie wrote:How do you all reconcile this with Rahab? That one always perplexed me, it does seem like she was rewarded for lying and always mentioned throughout generations, and in the Lord's ancestry-(assuming it's the same Rahab?)
Rahab was also a prostitute, but I don't think that's a good way to earn a living..
Josh, that doesn't really answer the question, of course not-
0 x
Valerie
Posts: 5309
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:59 am
Location: Medina OH
Affiliation: non-denominational

Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by Valerie »

haithabu wrote:According to Hebrews 11:31, it wasn't Rahab's lie which saved here, it was her faith by which she welcomed the spies in peace. This faith was evidenced in her statement:
For the Lord your God is God in heaven above and on earth below!
Joshua 2:11

Sometimes God looks past the things we do to the underlying faith, as I believe He did with Jacob. So that even though Jacob was a liar, a sneak and a fraud God could still say of him "Jacob have I loved..."

http://foreverriver.blogspot.ca/2010/08 ... acter.html
I'm not suggesting it is right to lie, and I know that those in the OT were not perfect, neither are folks in the NT- all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God- what I am wondering is if GOD saw Rahab's lie as a 'sin'- we don't read that He did, we don't read that it was looked at like a sin (unlike Solomon's sins, or David when he sinned, etc) and in fact this lie was used in the actual plan for Israel in the situation they were facing-and it seemed that God did not step in with any other way to aid the Jews- I guess I always found it perplexing and I don't see Jesus condemning it nor the Apostles-
those who 'practice' lies, are liars, we don't know if Rahab was considered a 'liar' because we don't know if she made a practice of lying. (I'm just pondering this outloud so to speak, and NO I am not using this to justify lying, I just don't see a 'consquence' to this like sin leads to, like when Abraham lied to protect himself)- this seems like a whole different scenario. Rahab was the mother of Boaz, apparently this action of hers led to her salvation-and yes her faith in God- but this same 'faith' led her to lie to help Israel, and save her family- interesting
0 x
RZehr
Posts: 7027
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:42 am
Affiliation: Cons. Mennonite

Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by RZehr »

Is it wrong to take advice? I know someone who has a very low opinion of others advice and a high level of trust in his own decisions. He's told me that in all the major decisions in his life, he has gone against others advice, and it has turned out great. What is missing in his account, and also in Rahabs, is the story of what could be. What would the alternative outcomes be if he took advice, or if Rahab hadn't lied? We'll never know - perhaps it would have turned out better.

Did Abraham lie? Sarah was his half sister, that part was true. But maybe the Bible account isn't complete and he did tell a lie. Did his behavior have a part to play, was an example set for his descendants? We see Isaac lied too. Jacob lied. It bears consideration that if Abraham held honesty in high regard, his children may have as well. And the lying that was taught, and the distrust that was woven, and the grief in that family may have been avoided.

There is always an alternative to lying. Of course it may not be a good alternative, but it is never necessary to lie.
0 x
lesterb
Posts: 1160
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:41 pm
Location: Alberta
Affiliation: Western Fellowship
Contact:

Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by lesterb »

I heard a sermon that Jeff Jarmon preached at Stirling on Christian ethics. He addressed this question at length. Jeff is probably the closest Mennonite equivalent to Ravi Zacharias that I know of. I'll have to get a copy of that sermon and link it here when I get home again, just to see what people on here say. At the beginning of the sermon he took a survey of people who thought it was always wrong to tell a lie. The answer was the status quo one that is being given here.

His message and the response to the survey he took at the end of the message might surprise you.I'm not saying that I agree with him, but it was a startling message to say the least.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's pretty easy to give status quo answers to hypothetical situations. But it might be a bit harder in a genuine real life situation.
0 x
lesterb
Posts: 1160
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:41 pm
Location: Alberta
Affiliation: Western Fellowship
Contact:

Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by lesterb »

RZehr wrote:There is always an alternative to lying. Of course it may not be a good alternative, but it is never necessary to lie.
That isn't the question that was asked. Of course there's always an alternative to lying. But is it an ethical alternative?
0 x
RZehr
Posts: 7027
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:42 am
Affiliation: Cons. Mennonite

Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by RZehr »

lesterb wrote:
RZehr wrote:There is always an alternative to lying. Of course it may not be a good alternative, but it is never necessary to lie.
That isn't the question that was asked. Of course there's always an alternative to lying. But is it an ethical alternative?
Maybe I better listen to what Jeff Jarmon says before answering that.
0 x
MaxPC
Posts: 9044
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:09 pm
Location: Former full time RVers
Affiliation: PlainRomanCatholic
Contact:

Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by MaxPC »

RZehr wrote:Bonhoeffer also apparently believed it was right to kill Hitler. His position on the drunk father question is equally wrong.

We as Christians are told not to lie, and to answer truthfully. This is not dependent on the trustworthiness or integrity of the person asking the question. To say one is morally obligated to lie is to forfeit ones own trustworthiness and integrity.
Bonhoeffer wrongly ties answering truthfully, to spreading truth. But we are not under an injunction to make sure the other party has perfect understanding of the whole truth or the whole situation, which is a major distinction that he apparently misses.
If a question is asked of a Christian that would cause harm, we have a few options.
- We can truthfully answer in a helpful way that clearly defines the situation.
- We can deflect, or answer with another question, or in the manner Menno Simons did on the carriage.
- We can "open not our mouth", or choose not to answer.
:clap: :up:
0 x
Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
follower
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:07 am
Affiliation: Organic church

Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by follower »

So how about 1 Samuel 16?
16 And the Lord said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons.

2 And Samuel said, How can I go? if Saul hear it, he will kill me. And the Lord said, Take an heifer with thee, and say, I am come to sacrifice to the Lord.

3 And call Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will shew thee what thou shalt do: and thou shalt anoint unto me him whom I name unto thee.

4 And Samuel did that which the Lord spake, and came to Bethlehem. And the elders of the town trembled at his coming, and said, Comest thou peaceably?

5 And he said, Peaceably: I am come to sacrifice unto the Lord: sanctify yourselves, and come with me to the sacrifice. And he sanctified Jesse and his sons, and called them to the sacrifice.
If any person did what God did in this passage, most would call it being deceitful, if not outright lying.

Definitely food for thought when considering the subject of lying.
0 x
Hats Off
Posts: 2532
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:42 pm
Affiliation: Plain Menno OO

Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by Hats Off »

Follower, remember that God is God and He alone understands what He does or did in the past. His actions in the past are not what we are told to follow. What you quoted is not relevant to us today and should not be food for thought on the subject of honesty. We have the teachings of Jesus when He was on earth and there we are told that no liar has part in His kingdom. The teachings in the New Testament are the ultimate guide and authority for us in this life.
0 x
Post Reply