Is it ever OK to lie?

General Christian Theology
ken_sylvania
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by ken_sylvania »

Valerie wrote:
ken_sylvania wrote:
Valerie wrote:
I think Rahab was brought up in this thread, and how she had to lie to save the Jews- and I don't get the impression in that case that God saw that as sin. Do you see what she did as sin? It saved her entire family- as well as the Jews. Now I realize that Anabaptists don't believe in just war either, but war in the Old Testament didn't seem like sin either when it was by God's call- If there is a situation where lying would prevent murder- then lying would be the the choice that someone led of God might chose over their murder. Perhaps that sounds like rationalizing but- I'm thinking of Rahab's story with the Jews- it seemed a better plan than not lying and she it led to her salvation ultimately-

she's even mentioned in the New Testament- Hall of Faith in Hebrews:
Hebrews 11:31
By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies in peace, did not perish with those who were disobedient.
That sounds like "Let us do evil, that good may come."

Notice too, that Rahab is not praised for lying - she is praised for welcoming the spies in peace. The NT has plenty to say about deceit, and lying, classifying both as works of the flesh which should be put off by the Christian. Also contains commands to speak the truth. Jesus specifically said that our "yea must be yea," and that anything other than this is evil.

If you would be willing to lie in order to prevent murder, would you be willing to lie under oath in order to prevent murder?
I am saying that if Rahab had done anything wrong in God's eyes, that would have been made clear- in Old, or New Testament- her action included the lying, of course she wasn't praised for that part, but that part is included in her action and what good that it did- which in this case was part of God's plan- I'm not 'afraid' to acknowledge that and not using that to excuse lying. It's like the case in Corrie Ten Boom's 'The Hiding Place'. I think we will simply disagree on this- I see the murder as worse. The lying had no evil intention- in these cases- I think that God would not disagree with looking at it that way- but that's me-
David wasn't criticized for his multiple wives either.

Abram had no evil intention when he lied about his relationship to Sarai, but that didn't excuse him (interestingly, he lied in an attempt to prevent murder). Same with Isaac, he lied about his relationship to Rebecca.

So, do you think it would be OK to lie under oath to prevent murder? How far are you willing to take this rationalization?
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Valerie
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by Valerie »

ken_sylvania wrote:
Valerie wrote:
ken_sylvania wrote:
That sounds like "Let us do evil, that good may come."

Notice too, that Rahab is not praised for lying - she is praised for welcoming the spies in peace. The NT has plenty to say about deceit, and lying, classifying both as works of the flesh which should be put off by the Christian. Also contains commands to speak the truth. Jesus specifically said that our "yea must be yea," and that anything other than this is evil.

If you would be willing to lie in order to prevent murder, would you be willing to lie under oath in order to prevent murder?
I am saying that if Rahab had done anything wrong in God's eyes, that would have been made clear- in Old, or New Testament- her action included the lying, of course she wasn't praised for that part, but that part is included in her action and what good that it did- which in this case was part of God's plan- I'm not 'afraid' to acknowledge that and not using that to excuse lying. It's like the case in Corrie Ten Boom's 'The Hiding Place'. I think we will simply disagree on this- I see the murder as worse. The lying had no evil intention- in these cases- I think that God would not disagree with looking at it that way- but that's me-
David wasn't criticized for his multiple wives either.

Abram had no evil intention when he lied about his relationship to Sarai, but that didn't excuse him (interestingly, he lied in an attempt to prevent murder). Same with Isaac, he lied about his relationship to Rebecca.

So, do you think it would be OK to lie under oath to prevent murder? How far are you willing to take this rationalization?
Jesus didn't even address David's many wives. None of the Apostles did either. I don't read where that was considered sin in the old or new testament- not like when Jesus gave the Sermon on the Mount- Jacob had 2 wives, that's not even addressed as sin either in either the Old or New Testament- but the requirements of bishops, elders, deacons- that they be the husband of 'one' wife.
I think that Abram's lie about Sarai being his sister (which she was his half sister) had a somewhat evil intention- in that he didn't seem to worry about preventing what would happen to HER by telling this lie. Same with Rebecca.
In Rahab's case, it was saving the Jews- and ultimately her family was saved through this. And I think that was 'ok' by God.
Your question to me personally i wouldn't know how to answer unless I was actually in the situation- we are not supposed to take oaths- but if my lying prevented an evil murder- God would understand- as He allowed in some cases. That is why the OP asks "is it 'ever' ok to lie". Lying is a sin. Murder is a more grievous sin. I think there is room for mercy to be applied.
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Sudsy
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by Sudsy »

Imo, I don't think God approves of lying anymore than He approves of adultery or other sins. However, even in our sinning, God is at work to bring about His purposes. If sin is anything that falls short of the glory of God, which it is, we all sin and often sin willingly, if we would admit to it, yet God knows are weakness and continues to work in those who love Him and are called according to His purposes. This doesn't give us a free hand to sin either, God forbid. And most often, when we sin, there are adverse consequences that sin brings. So, we should take sinning seriously and by way of the grace of God do what brings God glory.
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silentreader
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by silentreader »

Valerie wrote:
ken_sylvania wrote:
Valerie wrote:
I am saying that if Rahab had done anything wrong in God's eyes, that would have been made clear- in Old, or New Testament- her action included the lying, of course she wasn't praised for that part, but that part is included in her action and what good that it did- which in this case was part of God's plan- I'm not 'afraid' to acknowledge that and not using that to excuse lying. It's like the case in Corrie Ten Boom's 'The Hiding Place'. I think we will simply disagree on this- I see the murder as worse. The lying had no evil intention- in these cases- I think that God would not disagree with looking at it that way- but that's me-
David wasn't criticized for his multiple wives either.

Abram had no evil intention when he lied about his relationship to Sarai, but that didn't excuse him (interestingly, he lied in an attempt to prevent murder). Same with Isaac, he lied about his relationship to Rebecca.

So, do you think it would be OK to lie under oath to prevent murder? How far are you willing to take this rationalization?
Jesus didn't even address David's many wives. None of the Apostles did either. I don't read where that was considered sin in the old or new testament- not like when Jesus gave the Sermon on the Mount- Jacob had 2 wives, that's not even addressed as sin either in either the Old or New Testament- but the requirements of bishops, elders, deacons- that they be the husband of 'one' wife.
I think that Abram's lie about Sarai being his sister (which she was his half sister) had a somewhat evil intention- in that he didn't seem to worry about preventing what would happen to HER by telling this lie. Same with Rebecca.
In Rahab's case, it was saving the Jews- and ultimately her family was saved through this. And I think that was 'ok' by God.
Your question to me personally i wouldn't know how to answer unless I was actually in the situation- we are not supposed to take oaths- but if my lying prevented an evil murder- God would understand- as He allowed in some cases. That is why the OP asks "is it 'ever' ok to lie". Lying is a sin. Murder is a more grievous sin. I think there is room for mercy to be applied.
James 2:10-13English Standard Version (ESV)
10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
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Joy
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by Joy »

While we're on the subject of lying, here's one that has always puzzled me (I don't think it has come up in this thread), the story of the old prophet in I Kings 13. He lied, which resulted in the death of the man of God--who had just prophesied King Josiah's birth, and whom God had just protected from the king's wrath. Scripture doesn't mention any punishment except for the man of God. Any ideas as to why the story is presented this way, including the old prophet's reaction to his death? The whole, complicated story is a conundrum to me.
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Valerie
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by Valerie »

Joy wrote:While we're on the subject of lying, here's one that has always puzzled me (I don't think it has come up in this thread), the story of the old prophet in I Kings 13. He lied, which resulted in the death of the man of God--who had just prophesied King Josiah's birth, and whom God had just protected from the king's wrath. Scripture doesn't mention any punishment except for the man of God. Any ideas as to why the story is presented this way, including the old prophet's reaction to his death? The whole, complicated story is a conundrum to me.
It's a really sad/hard story- it seems because the man of God ended up believing the 'man' who claimed to be a prophet over what God had already instructed him, was seemingly punished/used by an example. On the other hand- it also seems that there was somewhat of a miracle that took place regarding the lion and the donkey- and also- the old prophet recognized the man of God, as a man of God- and so wanted his bones buried with the man of God's bones. There's something about them bones of the righteous ones- as we recollect about Elijah's bones causing a dead man to come to life again. Grace-
Just some thoughts I was pondering when you caused me to read about this story-
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RZehr
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by RZehr »

francis wrote:I really don't think it's wrong to lie to save a life.
Do you think it is okay to both lie to save someone else life and to save your own life?
Many martyrs would have been spared had they believed it was acceptable to lie to save their life.
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Sudsy
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by Sudsy »

RZehr wrote:
francis wrote:I really don't think it's wrong to lie to save a life.
Do you think it is okay to both lie to save someone else life and to save your own life?
Many martyrs would have been spared had they believed it was acceptable to lie to save their life.
Seems to me Peter lied and denied knowing Jesus 3 times to spare reproach or perhaps even his own life. But later Peter repented of this lie and became a great apostle. He bragged about how he would never lie (deny) Christ and Jesus knew his heart was right yet his flesh was weak. I think God was at work to make what Peter did, which was wrong, to be something that brings God glory. In the end Peter did die as a martyr.

I suppose if someone was taught and believed in their heart that denying Christ to save their own life was a sin that would not be forgiven and would send them to a eternal place of hell fire, that would be a strong incentive to forfeit one's life. Or perhaps forfeiting one's life when given the chance was a way to ensure eternal life. Or -----. Whatever, for some reason it was not an acceptable line to cross for many. And God alone knows the heart belief behind doing this.
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RZehr
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by RZehr »

Sudsy wrote:
RZehr wrote: Do you think it is okay to both lie to save someone else life and to save your own life?
Many martyrs would have been spared had they believed it was acceptable to lie to save their life.
Seems to me Peter lied and denied knowing Jesus 3 times to spare reproach or perhaps even his own life. But later Peter repented of this lie and became a great apostle. He bragged about how he would never lie (deny) Christ and Jesus knew his heart was right yet his flesh was weak. I think God was at work to make what Peter did, which was wrong, to be something that brings God glory. In the end Peter did die as a martyr.
I agree.
Peter lied out of fear of consequences of the truth. Which is still a reason people lie today, and which is still wrong today.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by Bootstrap »

Here's one overview of what the Bible teaches on this.

Lie, Lying (Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology)

Here's another:

Falsehood (Nave's Topical Bible)

And a third:

Lie, Lying (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia)

Could there ever be a time that God tells someone to be vague about the truth? Possibly, but I would discern long and hard together with other brethren before coming to that conclusion. I'm not willing to judge Christians who lied to save the lives of Jews in Nazi Germany or to save the lives of escaped slaves on the Underground Railroad. But let's not play situation ethics - this is not the situation most of us find ourselves in.

And I think we need to take falsehood seriously in our fellowships. If someone clearly seems to be lying, we should ask for evidence. If someone is offended by that request and responds inappropriately, that should tell us something. This is one of the ways we decide how important truth is to us. I was part of a church that became a cult over time because they refused to pay adequate attention to the lies of a particularly charming leader who eventually ran it. He had lied about his education, his credentials, his knowledge of Greek ... and eventually it turned out he was lying about a whole lot of other things too. The leadership carefully shielded him from any questions. Eventually, it all came out.

Many companies would quickly fire someone who repeatedly, blatantly lies because that threatens the integrity of the company. It threatens the integrity of a fellowship too.
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