Is it ever OK to lie?

General Christian Theology
silentreader
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by silentreader »

I find it hard to reconcile a verse such as this:
Proverbs 12:22English Standard Version (ESV)
22 
Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord,
    but those who act faithfully are his delight.
...with the idea that God approves of lying in the OT.
I think in all of the cases of 'godly' people lying in the OT it is quite probable that the person did what he/she thought was best, without asking God what to do, or waiting for God to guide, so lying was not necessarily God's best way in any of the situations. God does accept our mistakes, and then moves on with His purposes. but there are often negative consequences to our mistakes when that happens. I believe it is best to seek God's will and guidance before moving ahead in a doubtful manner.
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Sudsy
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by Sudsy »

And it seems most people think it threatens the integrity of the president of the United States. Seems, without getting into a political chat, there is considerable concern over the lies and twisted truth of Donald. Donald needs our prayers.

I do think we can get to a point of living in a make believe world where telling untruths seem to be truths. Habitual lies can take us there. I had a friend years ago that would exagerate to the point where only he would believe what he was saying. Folks would chuckle behind the scenes at his attempt to go beyond reasonableness. Perhaps many of us have run into people who have this tendency to 'one up' in telling stories to the point that they are lies. I confess I have done this myself when I was seeking for recognition or to entertain. I think when the bible says 'all liars' it is referring to those who have given into telling lies as their MO.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by Bootstrap »

silentreader wrote:...with the idea that God approves of lying in the OT.
I think in all of the cases of 'godly' people lying in the OT it is quite probable that the person did what he/she thought was best, without asking God what to do, or waiting for God to guide, so lying was not necessarily God's best way in any of the situations. God does accept our mistakes, and then moves on with His purposes. but there are often negative consequences to our mistakes when that happens. I believe it is best to seek God's will and guidance before moving ahead in a doubtful manner.
I think that's generally true. To me, though, 1 Samuel 16 really does look like an instance where God specifically told a prophet to at least be very misleading, if not to lie outright. If you come to a city in order to anoint a new king to replace the current one, is it honest to act like this?
1 Samuel 16 wrote:1 The LORD said to Samuel, "How long will you grieve over Saul, since I have rejected him from being king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil, and go. I will send you to Jesse the Bethlehemite, for I have provided for myself a king among his sons." 2 And Samuel said, "How can I go? If Saul hears it, he will kill me." And the LORD said, "Take a heifer with you and say, 'I have come to sacrifice to the LORD.' 3 And invite Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will show you what you shall do. And you shall anoint for me him whom I declare to you." 4 Samuel did what the LORD commanded and came to Bethlehem. The elders of the city came to meet him trembling and said, "Do you come peaceably?" 5 And he said, "Peaceably; I have come to sacrifice to the LORD. Consecrate yourselves, and come with me to the sacrifice." And he consecrated Jesse and his sons and invited them to the sacrifice.
But let's not use that as an excuse. If you ever feel God is calling you to do anything untruthful, that's a time for an awful lot of extra discernment.
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silentreader
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by silentreader »

Bootstrap wrote:
silentreader wrote:...with the idea that God approves of lying in the OT.
I think in all of the cases of 'godly' people lying in the OT it is quite probable that the person did what he/she thought was best, without asking God what to do, or waiting for God to guide, so lying was not necessarily God's best way in any of the situations. God does accept our mistakes, and then moves on with His purposes. but there are often negative consequences to our mistakes when that happens. I believe it is best to seek God's will and guidance before moving ahead in a doubtful manner.
I think that's generally true. To me, though, 1 Samuel 16 really does look like an instance where God specifically told a prophet to at least be very misleading, if not to lie outright. If you come to a city in order to anoint a new king to replace the current one, is it honest to act like this?
1 Samuel 16 wrote:1 The LORD said to Samuel, "How long will you grieve over Saul, since I have rejected him from being king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil, and go. I will send you to Jesse the Bethlehemite, for I have provided for myself a king among his sons." 2 And Samuel said, "How can I go? If Saul hears it, he will kill me." And the LORD said, "Take a heifer with you and say, 'I have come to sacrifice to the LORD.' 3 And invite Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will show you what you shall do. And you shall anoint for me him whom I declare to you." 4 Samuel did what the LORD commanded and came to Bethlehem. The elders of the city came to meet him trembling and said, "Do you come peaceably?" 5 And he said, "Peaceably; I have come to sacrifice to the LORD. Consecrate yourselves, and come with me to the sacrifice." And he consecrated Jesse and his sons and invited them to the sacrifice.
But let's not use that as an excuse. If you ever feel God is calling you to do anything untruthful, that's a time for an awful lot of extra discernment.
That's true about Samuel, but notice that he did second-guess God's first instruction and it was then that God gave him an 'out'. What would have happened if he would have just gone and done it? Would God have allowed Saul to kill Samuel because Samuel was unquestioningly obedient?
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Bootstrap
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by Bootstrap »

silentreader wrote:That's true about Samuel, but notice that he did second-guess God's first instruction and it was then that God gave him an 'out'. What would have happened if he would have just gone and done it? Would God have allowed Saul to kill Samuel because Samuel was unquestioningly obedient?
Maybe.

I find it really helpful to assume there's a lot I don't know. There are quite a few times in the Old Testament where God commands people to do things that are not consistent with New Testament Christianity. I don't really have great explanations for that, but I do think we should be especial careful about directly applying Old Testament passages without a New Testament filter.

I mean, what do you do with commands like this?
Numbers 31:17-18 wrote:Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves.
Or this?
2 Kings 23:20-25 wrote:He executed the priests of the pagan shrines on their own altars, and he burned human bones on the altars to desecrate them…. He did this in obedience to all the laws written in the scroll that Hilkiah the priest had found in the LORD’s Temple. Never before had there been a king like Josiah, who turned to the LORD with all his heart and soul and strength, obeying all the laws of Moses. And there has never been a king like him since.
Or this?
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 wrote:If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.
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silentreader
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by silentreader »

Bootstrap wrote:
silentreader wrote:That's true about Samuel, but notice that he did second-guess God's first instruction and it was then that God gave him an 'out'. What would have happened if he would have just gone and done it? Would God have allowed Saul to kill Samuel because Samuel was unquestioningly obedient?
Maybe.

I find it really helpful to assume there's a lot I don't know. There are quite a few times in the Old Testament where God commands people to do things that are not consistent with New Testament Christianity. I don't really have great explanations for that, but I do think we should be especial careful about directly applying Old Testament passages without a New Testament filter.

I mean, what do you do with commands like this?
Numbers 31:17-18 wrote:Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves.
Or this?
2 Kings 23:20-25 wrote:He executed the priests of the pagan shrines on their own altars, and he burned human bones on the altars to desecrate them…. He did this in obedience to all the laws written in the scroll that Hilkiah the priest had found in the LORD’s Temple. Never before had there been a king like Josiah, who turned to the LORD with all his heart and soul and strength, obeying all the laws of Moses. And there has never been a king like him since.
Or this?
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 wrote:If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.
For sure there's a lot I don't know or understand either, but those passages remind me, don't mess with God.
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RZehr
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by RZehr »

Lying is certainly a forgivable offence, we see that in the scriptures.
Forgivability vs. Acceptability = Big difference.
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MaxPC
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Re: Is it ever OK to lie?

Post by MaxPC »

RZehr wrote:Lying is certainly a forgivable offence, we see that in the scriptures.
Forgivability vs. Acceptability = Big difference.
Yes indeed :up:
Jesus forgave and He also said "Go and sin no more."
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