Baptism in the Catholic Church

[Soloist]

So the Vatican came out saying transgenders could now be baptized, from a theological view, does this mean that the Catholic Church doesn’t care if repentance is done? It certainly seems like there is some careful language in the official statement which implies if they are not repentant, then it’s not a real baptism.
https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/cong ... -negri.pdf

[MaxPC]

To summarise succinctly:
The priests are trained to discern the intent of the god parents and the baptisee. If there is no intent to live according to the teachings of the Catholic Church then the baptism will not be allowed.

Re god parents: Paragraph 868 of the Code of Canon law, and said “for the child to be baptized there must be a well-founded hope that he or she will be educated in the Catholic religion.”

Re the person requesting baptism: When there is some doubt about the objective moral situation in which a person finds himself, or about his subjective disposition toward grace.” The Catholic Church teaches that baptism received without repentance for grave sins, while it gives an indelible sacramental character, does not bestow sanctifying grace.

In short, bad intentions invalidate eligibility. If the person requesting baptism is unrepentant and refuses to amend his or her life, then the baptism is not allowed. If they are baptised already and take up a life of grave sin, they invalidate the sanctifying grace of said baptism.

If one does not understand completely, do not worry. Canon Law-speak is a learned language.

[Soloist]

In essence, the church does not object to baptizing transgenders?

[MaxPC]

In essence, the church does not object to baptizing transgenders?

It does not object if the transgenders repent, stop living in grave sin and amend their lives.

[Soloist]

In essence, the church does not object to baptizing transgenders?

It does not object if the transgenders repent, stop living in grave sin and amend their lives.

I don’t see that in the writing. I think you are misrepresenting what it says.

[Soloist]

On 14 July 2023, this Dicastery received a letter from H.E. Monsignor José Negri, Bishop of Santo Amaro in Brazil, containing some questions regarding the possible participation in the sacraments of baptism and marriage by transsexual and homo-affective people.
After a study on the matter, this Dicastery responded as follows.
Responses from the Dicastery to H.E. Monsignor Negri
The following responses essentially reiterate the fundamental contents of what has already been stated on the subject by this Dicastery1 in the past.
1. Can a transsexual be baptized?
A transsexual - who has also undergone hormonal treatment and sex reassignment surgery - can receive baptism, under the same conditions as other believers, if there are no situations in which there is a risk of generating public scandal or disorientation. in the faithful. In the case of children or adolescents with transsexual problems, if well prepared and willing, they can receive Baptism.
At the same time, the following needs to be considered, especially when there are doubts about the objective moral situation in which a person finds himself or about his subjective dispositions towards grace.
In the case of Baptism, the Church teaches that, when the sacrament is received without repentance for grave sins, the subject does not receive sanctifying grace, although he receives the sacramental character. The Catechism states: «
Saint Thomas Aquinas taught, in fact, that when the impediment to grace disappears, in someone who has received Baptism without the right dispositions, the character itself "is an immediate cause that disposes one to accept grace"3. Saint Augustine of Hippo recalled this situation by saying that, even if man falls into sin, Christ does not destroy the character received by him in Baptism and seeks (quaerit) the sinner, in whom this character is imprinted which identifies him as his property4 .

[Soloist]

It would seem to me that they do baptize them but leave the saving power as a question of repentance.

[MaxPC]

In essence, the church does not object to baptizing transgenders?

It does not object if the transgenders repent, stop living in grave sin and amend their lives.

I don’t see that in the writing. I think you are misrepresenting what it says.

As I said, Canon Law is a language unto itself. I was trained in it. You were not.

Simple explanation for the untrained:
If it is determined that the transgender does not repent, does not stop living in grave sin and shows no effort to amend his or her life in conformity with Catholic teachings, the transgender will not be baptised.

If a baptised Catholic becomes transgender, he or she will lose the sanctifying grace of that baptism and will be held responsible for losing that grace through personal choices to sin. Excommunication is a personal choice consequence of living a life of grave sin. Simple.
Think on it. It is quite clear and there is no room for misunderstanding.

[Soloist]

As I said, Canon Law is a language unto itself. I was trained in it. You were not.

Simple explanation for the untrained:
If it is determined that the transgender does not repent, does not stop living in grave sin and shows no effort to amend his or her life in conformity with Catholic teachings, the transgender will not be baptised.

If a baptised Catholic becomes transgender, he or she will lose the sanctifying grace of that baptism and will be held responsible for losing that grace through personal choices to sin. Excommunication is a personal choice consequence of living a life of grave sin. Simple.
Think on it. It is quite clear and there is no room for misunderstanding.

I don’t think it really is that simple. I think the language is crafted carefully to allow both sides to think it’s correct. And if you go back to the theologians that they’re referencing, you can see why your conclusion is wrong.
I think if what you say is true they could’ve simplified the whole problem very neatly by actually saying a “repentant” but they didn’t.
This is a political statement that can be taken by either side as meaning something completely different. Effectively what will happen is that you will have transgender’s baptized in the Catholic Church. Some transgender‘s will be refused baptism. This issue will come up again.
Also why would they express concern for public scandal? After all if they’re repentant, should not the church baptize them regardless of public scandal?
Effectively you are espousing in the conservative view of the statement, but denying the specific language they’re using. Just look at the media, I think it’s pretty obvious how the liberals take it.

[Ken]

And then there is what the Vatican's Dicastery of the Doctrine of the Faith (official Doctrinal Office) actually SAYS on the subject now (this article is from today): https://www.reuters.com/world/transsexu ... 023-11-08/

(and since Catholicism practices infant baptism, this is really only an issue for converts and one wonders how many non-Catholic transgender people really seek to convert to Catholicism every year)

Transgender people can be baptized Catholic, serve as godparents, Vatican says
By Philip Pullella
November 9, 20236:28 AM PSTUpdated 2 hours ago

VATICAN CITY, Nov 8 (Reuters) - Transgender people can be godparents at Roman Catholic baptisms, witnesses at religious weddings and receive baptism themselves, the Vatican's doctrinal office said on Wednesday, responding to questions from a bishop.

The department, known as the Dicastery of the Doctrine of the Faith, was vague however, in response to a question of whether a same-sex couple could have a Church baptism for an adopted child or one obtained through a surrogate mother.

Bishop Jose Negri of Santo Amaro in Brazil sent the doctrinal office six questions in July regarding LGBT people and their participation in the sacraments of baptism and matrimony.

The three pages of questions and answers were signed by the department's head, Argentine Cardinal Víctor Manuel Fernández, and approved by Pope Francis on Oct. 31. They were posted on the department's website on Wednesday using the Italian word for "transsexuals".

Francis, 86, has tried to make the Church more welcoming to the LGBT community without changing Church teachings, including one saying that same-sex attraction is not sinful but same-sex acts are.

In response to a question of whether transgender people can be baptized, the doctrinal office said they could with some conditions and as long as there is "no risk of causing a public scandal or disorientation among the faithful".

It said transgender people could be godparents at a baptism at the discretion of the local priest as well as a witness at a Church wedding, but the local priest should exercise "pastoral prudence" in his decision.

"This is an important step forward in the Church seeing transgender people not only as people (in a Church where some say they don't really exist) but as Catholics," Father James Martin, a prominent Jesuit priest and supporter of LGBT rights in the Church, said on X, formerly known as Twitter.

Francis has met with transgender people and in July, he told a transgender person: "Even if we are sinners, he (God) draws near to help us. The Lord loves us as we are, this is God's crazy love."

The document said a person in a same-sex relationship could also be a witness at a Catholic wedding, the office said, citing current Church canonical legislation which contained no prohibition against it.

The response was less clear regarding persons in same-sex relationships and their role in baptism, which is the initiation into the Church for infants, children or adults.

The Brazilian bishop sought guidance on whether a same-sex couple who had adopted a child or obtained it from a surrogate mother could have that child baptized in a Catholic ceremony.

The response said that for the child of a same-sex couple to be baptized, there had to be "a well-founded hope that it would be educated in the Catholic religion".

There was a similarly nuanced response to a question whether a person in a same-sex relationship could be a godparent at a Church baptism. It said the person had to "lead a life that conforms to the faith".