Poll: Palestine

[barnhart]

What value is obedience to Jesus' difficult teaching if the real battle to hold on to or recapture Zion (literal and figurative) is lost before our eyes.

Barnhart, could you perhaps elaborate on what you are asking here? I'm not clear on what you mean by the real battle to hold onto/recapture Zion being lost...

My critique of dispensational Zionism is the erection of goals or purposes for God's people that were not set out by Jesus and his apostles. Jesus never counselled his flock to win culture wars, control the supreme court, seize the seven mountains of society, overthrow government or ensure independent nation status for the land of Israel, yet you will find preaching for these things in most Evangelical churches. Once this program has been established as the most important calling, obedience to Jesus will no longer fit in that theological framework. Of all the premillennial Zionist I know, I appreciate the Anabaptists the most because they do best at holding these ideas in the end times but maintain the calling of the church in the current era is faithful obedience to Jesus. But I question if it is possible to keep such ideas as an end times theory while maintaining a Kingdom view of the church.

[silentreader]

What value is obedience to Jesus' difficult teaching if the real battle to hold on to or recapture Zion (literal and figurative) is lost before our eyes.

Barnhart, could you perhaps elaborate on what you are asking here? I'm not clear on what you mean by the real battle to hold onto/recapture Zion being lost...

My critique of dispensational Zionism is the erection of goals or purposes for God's people that were not set out by Jesus and his apostles. Jesus never counselled his flock to win culture wars, control the supreme court, seize the seven mountains of society, overthrow government or ensure independent nation status for the land of Israel, yet you will find preaching for these things in most Evangelical churches. Once this program has been established as the most important calling, obedience to Jesus will no longer fit in that theological framework. Of all the premillennial Zionist I know, I appreciate the Anabaptists the most because they do best at holding these ideas in the end times but maintain the calling of the church in the current era is faithful obedience to Jesus. But I question if it is possible to keep such ideas as an end times theory while maintaining a Kingdom view of the church.

My critique of dispensational Zionism is that Israel stands in unbelief, and for Christians to support them in that unbelief not only does Israel a disservice by affirming them in their lost condition, but harms the witness and credibility of Christians, who have this ministry of reconciliation the goal of which is to facilitate the reconciling to God, through Jesus Christ, those who are lost in unbelief.

[Nomad]

Barnhart, could you perhaps elaborate on what you are asking here? I'm not clear on what you mean by the real battle to hold onto/recapture Zion being lost...

My critique of dispensational Zionism is the erection of goals or purposes for God's people that were not set out by Jesus and his apostles. Jesus never counselled his flock to win culture wars, control the supreme court, seize the seven mountains of society, overthrow government or ensure independent nation status for the land of Israel, yet you will find preaching for these things in most Evangelical churches. Once this program has been established as the most important calling, obedience to Jesus will no longer fit in that theological framework. Of all the premillennial Zionist I know, I appreciate the Anabaptists the most because they do best at holding these ideas in the end times but maintain the calling of the church in the current era is faithful obedience to Jesus. But I question if it is possible to keep such ideas as an end times theory while maintaining a Kingdom view of the church.

My critique of dispensational Zionism is that Israel stands in unbelief, and for Christians to support them in that unbelief not only does Israel a disservice by affirming them in their lost condition, but harms the witness and credibility of Christians, who have this ministry of reconciliation the goal of which is to facilitate the reconciling to God, through Jesus Christ, those who are lost in unbelief.

I thought this was good...not all dispensational belief is connected to glorifying Israel in its current state today.

[Heirbyadoption]

What value is obedience to Jesus' difficult teaching if the real battle to hold on to or recapture Zion (literal and figurative) is lost before our eyes.

Barnhart, could you perhaps elaborate on what you are asking here? I'm not clear on what you mean by the real battle to hold onto/recapture Zion being lost...

My critique of dispensational Zionism is the erection of goals or purposes for God's people that were not set out by Jesus and his apostles. Jesus never counselled his flock to win culture wars, control the supreme court, seize the seven mountains of society, overthrow government or ensure independent nation status for the land of Israel, yet you will find preaching for these things in most Evangelical churches. Once this program has been established as the most important calling, obedience to Jesus will no longer fit in that theological framework. Of all the premillennial Zionist I know, I appreciate the Anabaptists the most because they do best at holding these ideas in the end times but maintain the calling of the church in the current era is faithful obedience to Jesus. But I question if it is possible to keep such ideas as an end times theory while maintaining a Kingdom view of the church.

Thank you for clarifying.

[Neto]

What value is obedience to Jesus' difficult teaching if the real battle to hold on to or recapture Zion (literal and figurative) is lost before our eyes.

Barnhart, could you perhaps elaborate on what you are asking here? I'm not clear on what you mean by the real battle to hold onto/recapture Zion being lost...

My critique of dispensational Zionism is the erection of goals or purposes for God's people that were not set out by Jesus and his apostles. Jesus never counselled his flock to win culture wars, control the supreme court, seize the seven mountains of society, overthrow government or ensure independent nation status for the land of Israel, yet you will find preaching for these things in most Evangelical churches. Once this program has been established as the most important calling, obedience to Jesus will no longer fit in that theological framework. Of all the premillennial Zionist I know, I appreciate the Anabaptists the most because they do best at holding these ideas in the end times but maintain the calling of the church in the current era is faithful obedience to Jesus. But I question if it is possible to keep such ideas as an end times theory while maintaining a Kingdom view of the church.

I do not see a conflict there, because I understand Jesus' declaration to Pilate that "Now my kingdom is not of this world", coupled with the prophecies about the Messiah's reign - coming to bring about justice, to mean that He didn't mean that His followers would NEVER fight, but that they won't NOW, because 'Where the King is, there is the kingdom." The Scripture does not make it clear as to whether the church will be a part of the "army of God", or not, but I think that it is a possibility. Not now, but maybe when Jesus returns to fulfill the rest of prophecy.

[ken_sylvania]

Barnhart, could you perhaps elaborate on what you are asking here? I'm not clear on what you mean by the real battle to hold onto/recapture Zion being lost...

My critique of dispensational Zionism is the erection of goals or purposes for God's people that were not set out by Jesus and his apostles. Jesus never counselled his flock to win culture wars, control the supreme court, seize the seven mountains of society, overthrow government or ensure independent nation status for the land of Israel, yet you will find preaching for these things in most Evangelical churches. Once this program has been established as the most important calling, obedience to Jesus will no longer fit in that theological framework. Of all the premillennial Zionist I know, I appreciate the Anabaptists the most because they do best at holding these ideas in the end times but maintain the calling of the church in the current era is faithful obedience to Jesus. But I question if it is possible to keep such ideas as an end times theory while maintaining a Kingdom view of the church.

I do not see a conflict there, because I understand Jesus' declaration to Pilate that "Now my kingdom is not of this world", coupled with the prophecies about the Messiah's reign - coming to bring about justice, to mean that He didn't mean that His followers would NEVER fight, but that they won't NOW, because 'Where the King is, there is the kingdom." The Scripture does not make it clear as to whether the church will be a part of the "army of God", or not, but I think that it is a possibility. Not now, but maybe when Jesus returns to fulfill the rest of prophecy.

Is there any prophecy or vision in Revelation where the saints or the armies of God do any fighting at all?

[barnhart]

I don't think so Ken. When the lamb overcomes his faithful are said to be "with him", but it's not clear what they will be doing.

[Neto]

My critique of dispensational Zionism is the erection of goals or purposes for God's people that were not set out by Jesus and his apostles. Jesus never counselled his flock to win culture wars, control the supreme court, seize the seven mountains of society, overthrow government or ensure independent nation status for the land of Israel, yet you will find preaching for these things in most Evangelical churches. Once this program has been established as the most important calling, obedience to Jesus will no longer fit in that theological framework. Of all the premillennial Zionist I know, I appreciate the Anabaptists the most because they do best at holding these ideas in the end times but maintain the calling of the church in the current era is faithful obedience to Jesus. But I question if it is possible to keep such ideas as an end times theory while maintaining a Kingdom view of the church.

I do not see a conflict there, because I understand Jesus' declaration to Pilate that "Now my kingdom is not of this world", coupled with the prophecies about the Messiah's reign - coming to bring about justice, to mean that He didn't mean that His followers would NEVER fight, but that they won't NOW, because 'Where the King is, there is the kingdom." The Scripture does not make it clear as to whether the church will be a part of the "army of God", or not, but I think that it is a possibility. Not now, but maybe when Jesus returns to fulfill the rest of prophecy.

Is there any prophecy or vision in Revelation where the saints or the armies of God do any fighting at all?

Chapter 19, specifically verses 14 through 19. Jesus the Messiah comes as the ruling warrior, as prophesied in the OT. Comes with the armies of Heaven. And the armies of the earth gather, to do battle against Him, and the army with Him.

The questions that are NOT answered or clarified are 1.) whether the army of God will participate in the battle, or if all will be done by the power of Christ alone, and 2.) Will believers be a part of that army. (The option would of course be that the army of God is Christ at the head of the angelic host.) As I said above (see bolded sentences). I readily admit that I do not know the answer to these questions, and I cannot categorically say yes or no for either of them. But if one's Biblical interpretation regards all of this as symbolism, not some physical event, then these questions are senseless, for there would then be no actual battle at all, no killing.

[I'm reminded of a comment a friend from public school made to me; He said

God is not like the Bible. He is like Jesus, and Jesus is all about LOVE.

Will he come in judgement? Jesus told that if his kingdom was of this world, then His followers would fight. It MAY be possible to draw an inference from that, that if/when there is an earthly kingdom, his followers WILL fight.]

[AndersonD]

I see a future for Israel. Meaning, they will see the Messiah one day and repent when He returns to rule and reign on the earth. And Jesus will reign from Jerusalem over the 12 Tribes of Israel. I believe it as Biblically prophetic and I have no apologies with my view. The New Covenant has a place for Israel, just as it's indicated by the OT prophets and this will be accomplished. I'm even sympathetic to the Zionist movement since it was fostered out of persecution from so-called Christians AND Muslims.

But, I dont believe everything Israel does currently is to be applauded. When they kill innocent life or perform evil acts to the citizens of their country, whether Jew or Arab, we shouldn't be supporting it.

If I shared your views on Israel, I would have married a Jew. Did you marry a Jew?

[Nomad]

I see a future for Israel. Meaning, they will see the Messiah one day and repent when He returns to rule and reign on the earth. And Jesus will reign from Jerusalem over the 12 Tribes of Israel. I believe it as Biblically prophetic and I have no apologies with my view. The New Covenant has a place for Israel, just as it's indicated by the OT prophets and this will be accomplished. I'm even sympathetic to the Zionist movement since it was fostered out of persecution from so-called Christians AND Muslims.

But, I dont believe everything Israel does currently is to be applauded. When they kill innocent life or perform evil acts to the citizens of their country, whether Jew or Arab, we shouldn't be supporting it.

If I shared your views on Israel, I would have married a Jew. Did you marry a Jew?

No I didn't. We are both full Gentile. But I kind of feel like I'm missing your point somehow...