Poll: Palestine

[ohio jones]

I think Deuteronomy is the key text here, especially chapter 4. There is a distinction between the right of ownership (promised in Genesis to all of Abraham's descendants, with boundaries for Esau, Edom, and Ammon, Deut. 2:5, 9, 19) and the right to occupy the land, which is conditioned on obedience.

4:40 You shall therefore keep His statutes and His commandments which I command you today, that it may go well with you and with your children after you, and that you may prolong your days in the land which the Lord your God is giving you for all time.

The phrase "that you may prolong your days in the land" is repeated throughout the book. The land may be theirs for all time, but because of disobedience their days in the land were not prolonged; they were cast out by the Assyrians, Babylonians, and Romans. If they are also cast out by Hamas and Hezbollah, it will be the consequence of disobedience.

There may be a future right to occupy the physical land "when you turn to the Lord your God and obey His voice" (4:30) but that day has not yet come.

In Christ, we receive the promises of Abraham (Gal. 3). But the promise of justification by faith is so much more important than the land, and there's better land elsewhere anyway, as those who have seen it will agree. The earth is the Lord's.

[Josh]

I voted "other" because I'm uncomfortable with Divine right language for any nation, including Israel. Even in biblical times the "right" of Jews to the land was mediated by other factors like faithfulness and lack of respect for the weak and powerless.

As far as the escaton and God's plans for Jews, I don't have a lot of certainty except the Righteous Judge will judge righteously and with mercy.

The Mormons applied the same kind of thinking to America somehow being their promised land. Ultimately with Utah being Zion.

[Ken]

None of the above.

[Ernie]

I'm glad to see how many people voted for #1.

It looks like we have a few people who support the Zionist movement. And one who does not.

Interestingly, it is many Orthodox Jews who are not for Zionism. They believe the regaining of Palestine should happen miraculously. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/an ... among-jews

[Ernie]

The phrase "that you may prolong your days in the land" is repeated throughout the book. The land may be theirs for all time, but because of disobedience their days in the land were not prolonged; they were cast out by the Assyrians, Babylonians, and Romans. If they are also cast out by Hamas and Hezbollah, it will be the consequence of disobedience.

I assume if they are not cast out by Hamas and Hezbollah, that you don't think this means they are being obedient.

[Ken]

I'm glad to see how many people voted for #1.

It looks like we have a few people who support the Zionist movement. And one who does not.

Interestingly, it is many Orthodox Jews who are not for Zionism. They believe the regaining of Palestine should happen miraculously. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/an ... among-jews

How do you reconcile that with Galatians 3:

16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.

and

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And for that matter Romans 4

16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”[c] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not.

Which in my reading basically say that the old covenant of God speaking through Abraham has been replaced by a new covenant of God speaking through Jesus and that we are all (everyone in the world) now the descendants of Abraham when it come to God's covenant with man.

I generally support a Jewish homeland because I think history has proven it necessary. But I don't think Jewish people have some unconditional and exclusive right to a specific territory because of Genesis or Exodus. Especially given that Jews, Christians, and Muslims can all claim to be descended from Abraham.

[Neto]

Other:

4. In the kingdom of the Messiah, those Jewish descendants of Abraham who believe in Him will receive the right to live forever in His kingdom, but they will not need to fight to obtain it or keep it.

5. In the kingdom of the Messiah, those non-Jewish or Arab descendants or Ishmaelite descendants of Abraham, and all peoples of the earth who believe in Him will receive the right, equal to that of the above group, to live forever in His kingdom, and will neither need to or desire to fight against any others in that kingdom.

(I tend to doubt that the present day nation of Israel is the one spoken of in the prophecies. I still have some reservations about this, but have thought along these lines since around the mid 70's. What I am saying is that I do not have any confidence as far as Scripture goes, that the current nation of Israel will not be defeated, either in the near or far off future. While I would love to be in Jerusalem during the time of the two witnesses, I have no tendency to believe that those events will, or will not, take place in my life time. But I tend to lean toward the latter, that it will not come about during my remaining years here.)

[Ernie]

I'm glad to see how many people voted for #1.

It looks like we have a few people who support the Zionist movement. And one who does not.

Interestingly, it is many Orthodox Jews who are not for Zionism. They believe the regaining of Palestine should happen miraculously. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/an ... among-jews

How do you reconcile that with Galatians 3:

Reconcile what?

[barnhart]

Interestingly, it is many Orthodox Jews who are not for Zionism. They believe the regaining of Palestine should happen miraculously. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/an ... among-jews

Some of those groups used to gather in front of the UN to protest the state of Israel.

[ohio jones]

The phrase "that you may prolong your days in the land" is repeated throughout the book. The land may be theirs for all time, but because of disobedience their days in the land were not prolonged; they were cast out by the Assyrians, Babylonians, and Romans. If they are also cast out by Hamas and Hezbollah, it will be the consequence of disobedience.

I assume if they are not cast out by Hamas and Hezbollah, that you don't think this means they are being obedient.

There was a great deal of disobedience in the OT, but they were not immediately removed. God is amazingly longsuffering, and his timing is not ours. There is no "right" of occupancy to those who are disobedient.