Zechariah 12

[Valerie]

My personal opinion is the "spiritual" gymnastics people apply to scripture in order to cut Israel out of God future promises are much more of a speculative approach to reading the Bible. I don't however, believe everything Israel does is "God ordained" or "prophecy-fulfilled". People seem to jump to that conclusion everytime I say I see a future for Israel...why?

Jeremiah 31 finishes by stating God will not cast off "all the seed Israel..." FOREVER. I've heard all kinds of views on this in order to change the meaning of the word "Forever", to mean not forever. All of it seems like they just want the church to be a new version of "Israel" or "Jew" which makes zero sense to me given the amount of time and energy Paul put into stating we Gentiles don't have to be Jews. Can't there be blessing for a future prophetic Israel (not necessarily this current nation/state) AND be fulfillment to the Church? Does it have to be either or?

Did you read my post above about "all Israel"?

Yes. I just have a different view than you do on how to interpret it I guess....

Yes- many Bible scholarships do too- Christian pastors follow different methods of interpreting. Ma.ny voices of "truth"

[silentreader]

With the present war going on between Israel & Hamas, a Pastor's message on Sunday eluded to this "may" lead to fulfillment of Zechariah 12. . So I reread Zechariah 12.

Obviously Israel is a nation- but does this prophecy refer to the future? The pastor seems to think so- or w as it fulfilled at time of Jesus crucifixion & A.D. 70?

The surrounding countries presently are against Israel too.

Does the watching world believe Israel is still the elect of God who do not realize New Testament teaching?

Most modern churches don't realize the NT teachings concerning "Israel". Lots of faulty doctrines based on extrapolating texts out of context. I taught what scripture teaches about these things this past Wednesday night at our church. Doesn't anyone remember Jesus' condemnation to the Jews of his day?

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

....and desolation had happened before...

15 And Yahweh, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by the hand of His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His habitation; 16 but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of Yahweh arose against His people, until there was no remedy. 17 Therefore He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans who killed their choice men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on choice man or virgin, old man or infirm; He gave them all into his hand. 18 And all the articles of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of Yahweh, and the treasures of the king and of his officials, he brought them all to Babylon. 19 Then they burned the house of God and tore down the wall of Jerusalem, and burned all its palaces with fire and destroyed all its valuable articles. 20 And those who had escaped from the sword he took away into exile to Babylon; and they were slaves to him and to his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia, 21 to fulfill the word of Yahweh by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had made up for its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it kept sabbath until seventy years were fulfilled.

2Chronicles 36:15-21

[gcdonner]

With the present war going on between Israel & Hamas, a Pastor's message on Sunday eluded to this "may" lead to fulfillment of Zechariah 12. . So I reread Zechariah 12.

Obviously Israel is a nation- but does this prophecy refer to the future? The pastor seems to think so- or w as it fulfilled at time of Jesus crucifixion & A.D. 70?

The surrounding countries presently are against Israel too.

Does the watching world believe Israel is still the elect of God who do not realize New Testament teaching?

Most modern churches don't realize the NT teachings concerning "Israel". Lots of faulty doctrines based on extrapolating texts out of context. I taught what scripture teaches about these things this past Wednesday night at our church. Doesn't anyone remember Jesus' condemnation to the Jews of his day?

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

....and desolation had happened before...

15 And Yahweh, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by the hand of His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His habitation; 16 but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of Yahweh arose against His people, until there was no remedy. 17 Therefore He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans who killed their choice men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on choice man or virgin, old man or infirm; He gave them all into his hand. 18 And all the articles of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of Yahweh, and the treasures of the king and of his officials, he brought them all to Babylon. 19 Then they burned the house of God and tore down the wall of Jerusalem, and burned all its palaces with fire and destroyed all its valuable articles. 20 And those who had escaped from the sword he took away into exile to Babylon; and they were slaves to him and to his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia, 21 to fulfill the word of Yahweh by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had made up for its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it kept sabbath until seventy years were fulfilled.

2Chronicles 36:15-21

Having desolations and being left desolate are 2 entirely different things. It's not a matter of interpretation, it is a matter of accepting what scripture plainly says and not re-interpreting it to fit a narrative.

[Nomad]

Most modern churches don't realize the NT teachings concerning "Israel". Lots of faulty doctrines based on extrapolating texts out of context. I taught what scripture teaches about these things this past Wednesday night at our church. Doesn't anyone remember Jesus' condemnation to the Jews of his day?

....and desolation had happened before...

15 And Yahweh, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by the hand of His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His habitation; 16 but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of Yahweh arose against His people, until there was no remedy. 17 Therefore He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans who killed their choice men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on choice man or virgin, old man or infirm; He gave them all into his hand. 18 And all the articles of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of Yahweh, and the treasures of the king and of his officials, he brought them all to Babylon. 19 Then they burned the house of God and tore down the wall of Jerusalem, and burned all its palaces with fire and destroyed all its valuable articles. 20 And those who had escaped from the sword he took away into exile to Babylon; and they were slaves to him and to his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia, 21 to fulfill the word of Yahweh by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had made up for its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it kept sabbath until seventy years were fulfilled.

2Chronicles 36:15-21

Having desolations and being left desolate are 2 entirely different things. It's not a matter of interpretation, it is a matter of accepting what scripture plainly says and not re-interpreting it to fit a narrative.

There's one key verse being left out here that finishes Jesus thought:

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23:37‭-‬39‬ ‭ESV‬‬
[37] “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! [38] See, your house is left to you desolate. [39] For I tell you, you will not see me again, UNTIL you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord'".

[silentreader]

Most modern churches don't realize the NT teachings concerning "Israel". Lots of faulty doctrines based on extrapolating texts out of context. I taught what scripture teaches about these things this past Wednesday night at our church. Doesn't anyone remember Jesus' condemnation to the Jews of his day?

....and desolation had happened before...

15 And Yahweh, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by the hand of His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His habitation; 16 but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of Yahweh arose against His people, until there was no remedy. 17 Therefore He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans who killed their choice men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on choice man or virgin, old man or infirm; He gave them all into his hand. 18 And all the articles of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of Yahweh, and the treasures of the king and of his officials, he brought them all to Babylon. 19 Then they burned the house of God and tore down the wall of Jerusalem, and burned all its palaces with fire and destroyed all its valuable articles. 20 And those who had escaped from the sword he took away into exile to Babylon; and they were slaves to him and to his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia, 21 to fulfill the word of Yahweh by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had made up for its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it kept sabbath until seventy years were fulfilled.

2Chronicles 36:15-21

Having desolations and being left desolate are 2 entirely different things. It's not a matter of interpretation, it is a matter of accepting what scripture plainly says and not re-interpreting it to fit a narrative.

You prefer the KJV?

15 And the Lord God of their fathers sent to them by his messengers, rising up betimes, and sending; because he had compassion on his people, and on his dwelling place:

16 But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against his people, till there was no remedy.

17 Therefore he brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: he gave them all into his hand.

18 And all the vessels of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the Lord, and the treasures of the king, and of his princes; all these he brought to Babylon.

19 And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof.

20 And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia:

21 To fulfil the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.

Or something else?

[gcdonner]

....and desolation had happened before...


2Chronicles 36:15-21

Having desolations and being left desolate are 2 entirely different things. It's not a matter of interpretation, it is a matter of accepting what scripture plainly says and not re-interpreting it to fit a narrative.

You prefer the KJV?

15 And the Lord God of their fathers sent to them by his messengers, rising up betimes, and sending; because he had compassion on his people, and on his dwelling place:

16 But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against his people, till there was no remedy.

17 Therefore he brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: he gave them all into his hand.

18 And all the vessels of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the Lord, and the treasures of the king, and of his princes; all these he brought to Babylon.

19 And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof.

20 And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia:

21 To fulfil the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.

Or something else?

Something else. What did Jesus say in Matt 23:38?

Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

There is no exception, no time limit and it has nothing to do with the land. Taken in context with the preceding woes and condemnations it was His final judgment on that "people", (no the Jews are not and never were a "race")
To understand the meaning of "house", a good reference is Heb 3:4-6

Heb 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

It was the "house" of Moses that was left desolate, with no further indication of renewal apart from Jesus himself.

[gcdonner]

....and desolation had happened before...


2Chronicles 36:15-21

Having desolations and being left desolate are 2 entirely different things. It's not a matter of interpretation, it is a matter of accepting what scripture plainly says and not re-interpreting it to fit a narrative.

There's one key verse being left out here that finishes Jesus thought:

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23:37‭-‬39‬ ‭ESV‬‬
[37] “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! [38] See, your house is left to you desolate. [39] For I tell you, you will not see me again, UNTIL you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord'".

Aha, they did see him when they said, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord".
They said it as he entered the city of Jerusalem in what we now call the "triumphal entry". The quote is from Ps 118. It was fulfilled very shortly after his prediction. He didn't limit the condemnation, only his presence with the Jews to whom he was speaking.
Only if you take it out of it's context and impose a futuristic mindset can you make it say something more than was intended. "Let God be true..."

A text taken out of context becomes a pretext.

[gcdonner]

BTW, I should state that I use the KJV here as it is the commonly used version by most Anabaptist groups. I use many different versions in my studies and teaching ministry. I do admit that the KJV is my "go to" version, since I have known it since a child and have memorized scripture from that version...like my tag line below.
2Ti 2:15 Study and be eager and do your utmost to present yourself to God approved (tested by trial), a workman who has no cause to be ashamed, correctly analyzing and accurately dividing [rightly handling and skillfully teaching] the Word of Truth. (AMP)

My alter punchline would be:
2Ti 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
2Ti 2:7 Consider what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything. (NASB)

[silentreader]

Having desolations and being left desolate are 2 entirely different things. It's not a matter of interpretation, it is a matter of accepting what scripture plainly says and not re-interpreting it to fit a narrative.

You prefer the KJV?

15 And the Lord God of their fathers sent to them by his messengers, rising up betimes, and sending; because he had compassion on his people, and on his dwelling place:

16 But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against his people, till there was no remedy.

17 Therefore he brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: he gave them all into his hand.

18 And all the vessels of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the Lord, and the treasures of the king, and of his princes; all these he brought to Babylon.

19 And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof.

20 And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia:

21 To fulfil the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.

Or something else?

Something else. What did Jesus say in Matt 23:38?

Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

There is no exception, no time limit and it has nothing to do with the land. Taken in context with the preceding woes and condemnations it was His final judgment on that "people", (no the Jews are not and never were a "race")
To understand the meaning of "house", a good reference is Heb 3:4-6

Heb 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

It was the "house" of Moses that was left desolate, with no further indication of renewal apart from Jesus himself.

Where was their "house" in Second Chronicles?

From the Tanakh....

36:14 Moreover all the chief of the priests, and the people, transgressed very much after all the abominations of the heathen; and polluted the house of the LORD which he had hallowed in Jerusalem.

36:15 And the LORD God of their fathers sent to them by his messengers, rising up betimes, and sending; because he had compassion on his people, and on his dwelling place: 36:16 But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy.

36:17 Therefore he brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: he gave them all into his hand.

36:18 And all the vessels of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king, and of his princes; all these he brought to Babylon.

36:19 And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof.

36:20 And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia: 36:21 To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.

[silentreader]

Having desolations and being left desolate are 2 entirely different things. It's not a matter of interpretation, it is a matter of accepting what scripture plainly says and not re-interpreting it to fit a narrative.

There's one key verse being left out here that finishes Jesus thought:

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23:37‭-‬39‬ ‭ESV‬‬
[37] “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! [38] See, your house is left to you desolate. [39] For I tell you, you will not see me again, UNTIL you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord'".

Aha, they did see him when they said, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord".
They said it as he entered the city of Jerusalem in what we now call the "triumphal entry". The quote is from Ps 118. It was fulfilled very shortly after his prediction. He didn't limit the condemnation, only his presence with the Jews to whom he was speaking.
Only if you take it out of it's context and impose a futuristic mindset can you make it say something more than was intended. "Let God be true..."

A text taken out of context becomes a pretext.

"For I tell you, you will not see me again until..." Not sure how that is relevant if it is within the same week, or couple of days, or day.