Zechariah 12

[Valerie]

With the present war going on between Israel & Hamas, a Pastor's message on Sunday eluded to this "may" lead to fulfillment of Zechariah 12. . So I reread Zechariah 12.

Obviously Israel is a nation- but does this prophecy refer to the future? The pastor seems to think so- or w as it fulfilled at time of Jesus crucifixion & A.D. 70?

The surrounding countries presently are against Israel too.

Does the watching world believe Israel is still the elect of God who do not realize New Testament teaching?

[gcdonner]

With the present war going on between Israel & Hamas, a Pastor's message on Sunday eluded to this "may" lead to fulfillment of Zechariah 12. . So I reread Zechariah 12.

Obviously Israel is a nation- but does this prophecy refer to the future? The pastor seems to think so- or w as it fulfilled at time of Jesus crucifixion & A.D. 70?

The surrounding countries presently are against Israel too.

Does the watching world believe Israel is still the elect of God who do not realize New Testament teaching?

Most modern churches don't realize the NT teachings concerning "Israel". Lots of faulty doctrines based on extrapolating texts out of context. I taught what scripture teaches about these things this past Wednesday night at our church. Doesn't anyone remember Jesus' condemnation to the Jews of his day?

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

[temporal1]

There is some discussion in the early pages of the Israel-Hamas thread:

Probably...it was as true then as it is now...

It is certainly true, but should it be applied to the situation in question?

No

My point exactly. I would say the modern Jewish state has little or no prophetic significance.
Therefore one cannot apply prophetic passages to it. It just fails on too many points.

I agree. It is absolutely astounding to me how much energy has been used up in the past several generations of Christian writers, preachers, and leaders speculating and pontificating about the prophetic significance of the modern nation of Israel.

[Valerie]

With the present war going on between Israel & Hamas, a Pastor's message on Sunday eluded to this "may" lead to fulfillment of Zechariah 12. . So I reread Zechariah 12.

Obviously Israel is a nation- but does this prophecy refer to the future? The pastor seems to think so- or w as it fulfilled at time of Jesus crucifixion & A.D. 70?

The surrounding countries presently are against Israel too.

Does the watching world believe Israel is still the elect of God who do not realize New Testament teaching?

Most modern churches don't realize the NT teachings concerning "Israel". Lots of faulty doctrines based on extrapolating texts out of context. I taught what scripture teaches about these things this past Wednesday night at our church. Doesn't anyone remember Jesus' condemnation to the Jews of his day? 4

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

I agreeperhaps due to Scofield Bibles onterpretation influencing American churches so much that distinction you point out is overlooked. My Church during the Hesus movement primarily of the 70s indeed applied all prophecies regarding Israel to today's Usrael. We were greatly influenced by that.

I'm more wondering in God's Sovereignty and for His namesake which was always important to Him- does the watchingvworld to this war see God as the God of the Jes cs Hamas/Muslims/Arab nations?

Because Israel did become a nation again. If one reads Za Harvard 12-14 when & who is it referring to?

[Bootstrap]

Zechariah was written when the Jews were returning to Israel from the Babylonian exile, when Cyrus the Great of Persia allowed the Jews to return to their homeland.

Chapters 1-9 are visions and prophecies that encourage the people to complete the construction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem. Chapters 9-14 are apocalyptic and messianic prophecies.

In Chapter 12, do you see this verse fulfilled?

And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

[Bootstrap]

I think its very easy to read whatever we want into the Bible when there are wars and we want to take sides. But I don't think we can say that God is automatically backing Israel against its enemies in every war. Even in the Old Testament, God was sometimes on the other side.

In fact, this is a major theme in the prophets, if we read them in context.

Sometimes God was on Babylon's side:

Jeremiah 25:9

I will summon all the peoples of the north and my servant Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon," declares the Lord, "and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants and against all the surrounding nations. I will completely destroy them and make them an object of horror and scorn, and an everlasting ruin.

Jeremiah 27:6-7

Now I will give all your countries into the hands of my servant Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; I will make even the wild animals subject to him. All nations will serve him and his son and his grandson until the time for his land comes; then many nations and great kings will subjugate him.

Sometimes God was on Assyria's side - but he also punished Assyria after using them to punish Israel:

Isaiah 10:5-6

Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger, in whose hand is the club of my wrath! I send him against a godless nation, I dispatch him against a people who anger me, to seize loot and snatch plunder, and to trample them down like mud in the streets.

Isaiah 10:12

When the Lord has finished all his work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, he will say, 'I will punish the king of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eyes.

The prophets warn of God's judgment on Israel - and one of the reasons God judged Israel is that they had mistreated foreigners. We need to consider what the prophets were actually saying to Israel and why. And I think they would say that the way Israel treats Palestinians matters now. It was one of the reasons Israel was led into captivity back then.

Jeremiah 7:5-7

If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, if you do not oppress the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm, then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave your ancestors for ever and ever.

Ezekiel 22:29

The people of the land practice extortion and commit robbery; they oppress the poor and needy and mistreat the foreigner, denying them justice.

Isaiah 58:6-7:

“Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice
and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?
Is it not to share your food with the hungry
and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
when you see the naked, to clothe them,
and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?

[barnhart]

I agree with your interpretation Boot, but I would be careful of raising critiques of Israel right now. If I visited a friend in the hospital who narrowly escaped death from a heart attack, my first impulse would not be to point out it was his fault for being overweight. There is a time and place for everything.

[Bootstrap]

I agree with your interpretation Boot, but I would be careful of raising critiques of Israel right now. If I visited a friend in the hospital who narrowly escaped death from a heart attack, my first impulse would not be to point out it was his fault for being overweight. There is a time and place for everything.

I agree.

But I think that holds for both sides of this conflict. I think God cares about both Jews and Palestinians. Both are facing horribly traumatic things. Most of the victims on both sides are innocent. We need compassion for all of the victims, not just the victims on one side.

In what I posted above, I did not mean to imply God's judgement on Israel in the current conflict. But I do want to warn about cherry-picking the prophets to imply that they were saying God is on Israel's side in every war no matter what they do. That's quite clearly not what the prophets were saying.

[ohio jones]

If one reads Za Harvard 12-14 when & who is it referring to?

Beets me. I imagine Finny could answer this, though; he's been to Harvard.

[gcdonner]

With the present war going on between Israel & Hamas, a Pastor's message on Sunday eluded to this "may" lead to fulfillment of Zechariah 12. . So I reread Zechariah 12.

Obviously Israel is a nation- but does this prophecy refer to the future? The pastor seems to think so- or w as it fulfilled at time of Jesus crucifixion & A.D. 70?

The surrounding countries presently are against Israel too.

Does the watching world believe Israel is still the elect of God who do not realize New Testament teaching?

Most modern churches don't realize the NT teachings concerning "Israel". Lots of faulty doctrines based on extrapolating texts out of context. I taught what scripture teaches about these things this past Wednesday night at our church. Doesn't anyone remember Jesus' condemnation to the Jews of his day? 4

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

I agreeperhaps due to Scofield Bibles onterpretation influencing American churches so much that distinction you point out is overlooked. My Church during the Hesus movement primarily of the 70s indeed applied all prophecies regarding Israel to today's Usrael. We were greatly influenced by that.

I'm more wondering in God's Sovereignty and for His namesake which was always important to Him- does the watchingvworld to this war see God as the God of the Jes cs Hamas/Muslims/Arab nations?

Because Israel did become a nation again. If one reads Za Harvard 12-14 when & who is it referring to?

The question that always needs to be asked about 1948, that while YHWH is sovereign was this a plan to "restore" the Biblical nation of Israel or just another klinker for people to stumble at. The present day Israel in Palestine is NOT a rule of YHWH, but a purely ethnic and idolatrous state. Most "Jews" are not believers in him,that is, they are either agnostic or atheistic, nor can they fulfill their mandate to worship him according the Holy Writ. There has not been animal sacrifice since Jesus destroyed the temple, nor is there a temple or priests, etc. The Old Covenant is dead/desolate, never to be returned, since Jesus died' "once for all". No where in the NT does it prophesy of a restored temple or sacrifices, quite the opposite. The only way the "Jews" can become God's chosen people again is to be grafted in to Jesus.