Zechariah 12

[gcdonner]

I agree with your interpretation Boot, but I would be careful of raising critiques of Israel right now. If I visited a friend in the hospital who narrowly escaped death from a heart attack, my first impulse would not be to point out it was his fault for being overweight. There is a time and place for everything.

I agree.

But I think that holds for both sides of this conflict. I think God cares about both Jews and Palestinians. Both are facing horribly traumatic things. Most of the victims on both sides are innocent. We need compassion for all of the victims, not just the victims on one side.

In what I posted above, I did not mean to imply God's judgement on Israel in the current conflict. But I do want to warn about cherry-picking the prophets to imply that they were saying God is on Israel's side in every war no matter what they do. That's quite clearly not what the prophets were saying.

YHWH quite clearly cares for all people and does not condone violence contrary to the church down through the ages. I am re-reading church history in a different format and am saddened for the violence, the power struggles, and the wealth that was used in the name of Jesus. As in the beginning there has always been a remnant. Let us be humble before rushing to claim that "we" are that remnant.

[Bootstrap]

There has not been animal sacrifice since Jesus destroyed the temple, nor is there a temple or priests, etc.

And of course, there's a mosque where the Jewish Temple used to be, the Al Aqsa Mosque was built in 1035, about 1,000 years ago.

[gcdonner]

There has not been animal sacrifice since Jesus destroyed the temple, nor is there a temple or priests, etc.

And of course, there's a mosque where the Jewish Temple used to be, the Al Aqsa Mosque was built in 1035, about 1,000 years ago.

[Valerie]

There has not been animal sacrifice since Jesus destroyed the temple, nor is there a temple or priests, etc.

And of course, there's a mosque where the Jewish Temple used to be, the Al Aqsa Mosque was built in 1035, about 1,000 years ago.

I would not rule out they do have plans about this.
Israel's. 6 day war was marked with a claim of many miracles. From 'their' perspective, they seem to believe in God's providence in that. Granted many Jews, as in ancient Israel, are not God fearing, but many are.
Sometimes this passage by Apostle Paul comes to mind:
Roman's 11:25:
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob."
1. Paul doesn't want us ignorant of a future mystery
2. We can be wise in our own conceits to believe we have this mystery figured out.
3. Paul saying ALL Israel shall be saved in THIS passage seems to include the lineage of Jews that God had blinded in part to then reach &:include Gentiles in His elect.

Just pondering all this. I guess that's why Apistle Paul referred to it as a mystery. Whenever the fulness of the Gentiles comes, something is going to happen-

[danfreed]

If one reads Za Harvard 12-14 when & who is it referring to?

Beets me. I imagine Finny could answer this, though; he's been to Harvard.

OJ,
You brought a smile to my face with your unique humor!
Valerie,
Thanks for continuing to bring excellent Bible questions to this forum.

I appreciate both of you Buckeyes.


And I also love both the Jews and the Palestinians.
And pray for peace...
through the Savior, Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace, who offers life for them all,
by His death and resurrection at Jerusalem about 2000 years ago.

This same Jesus loves all the rest of us, too, and gives us the same offer of life and peace through Himself.
We all are valuable to Him because He has set His love on us, His creation.

Side note....
And I appreciate Pastors Finny and Alistair.
I see them, along with OJ and Valerie, as wonderful partners in the Gospel.

If the reader is not familiar with these pastors, click these links to learn more.

Alistair Begg


Finny Kuruvilla
https://sattler.edu/blog/team/finny-kuruvilla/

[gcdonner]

And of course, there's a mosque where the Jewish Temple used to be, the Al Aqsa Mosque was built in 1035, about 1,000 years ago.

I would not rule out they do have plans about this.
Israel's. 6 day war was marked with a claim of many miracles. From 'their' perspective, they seem to believe in God's providence in that. Granted many Jews, as in ancient Israel, are not God fearing, but many are.
Sometimes this passage by Apostle Paul comes to mind:
Roman's 11:25:
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob."
1. Paul doesn't want us ignorant of a future mystery
2. We can be wise in our own conceits to believe we have this mystery figured out.
3. Paul saying ALL Israel shall be saved in THIS passage seems to include the lineage of Jews that God had blinded in part to then reach &:include Gentiles in His elect.

Just pondering all this. I guess that's why Apistle Paul referred to it as a mystery. Whenever the fulness of the Gentiles comes, something is going to happen-

But, who is "all Israel"? At the beginning of his dissertation, Paul said this:

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

All Israel includes the Gentiles;

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

There is only ONE WAY to the Father and his name is JESUS! The only way to be a "chosen" person is to be in Christ. Don't belittle the sacrifice of Christ by pandering to Zionism. You cannot say that they are "God fearing" when they have rejected God's plan of salvation. The New Covenant has replaced the Old Covenant. Don't impose Zionism on the NT or even the OT for that matter.

[gcdonner]

And of course, there's a mosque where the Jewish Temple used to be, the Al Aqsa Mosque was built in 1035, about 1,000 years ago.

I would not rule out they do have plans about this.
Israel's. 6 day war was marked with a claim of many miracles. From 'their' perspective, they seem to believe in God's providence in that. Granted many Jews, as in ancient Israel, are not God fearing, but many are.
Sometimes this passage by Apostle Paul comes to mind:
Roman's 11:25:
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob."
1. Paul doesn't want us ignorant of a future mystery
2. We can be wise in our own conceits to believe we have this mystery figured out.
3. Paul saying ALL Israel shall be saved in THIS passage seems to include the lineage of Jews that God had blinded in part to then reach &:include Gentiles in His elect.

Just pondering all this. I guess that's why Apistle Paul referred to it as a mystery. Whenever the fulness of the Gentiles comes, something is going to happen-

The fullness of the Gentiles already came, and the mystery has been revealed that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs "in Christ". See Gal 3:28-29
I am disappointed at the lack of NT understanding.

[Nomad]

There is some discussion in the early pages of the Israel-Hamas thread:

It is certainly true, but should it be applied to the situation in question?

No

My point exactly. I would say the modern Jewish state has little or no prophetic significance.
Therefore one cannot apply prophetic passages to it. It just fails on too many points.

I agree. It is absolutely astounding to me how much energy has been used up in the past several generations of Christian writers, preachers, and leaders speculating and pontificating about the prophetic significance of the modern nation of Israel.

My personal opinion is the "spiritual" gymnastics people apply to scripture in order to cut Israel out of God future promises are much more of a speculative approach to reading the Bible. I don't however, believe everything Israel does is "God ordained" or "prophecy-fulfilled". People seem to jump to that conclusion everytime I say I see a future for Israel...why?

Jeremiah 31 finishes by stating God will not cast off "all the seed Israel..." FOREVER. I've heard all kinds of views on this in order to change the meaning of the word "Forever", to mean not forever. All of it seems like they just want the church to be a new version of "Israel" or "Jew" which makes zero sense to me given the amount of time and energy Paul put into stating we Gentiles don't have to be Jews. Can't there be blessing for a future prophetic Israel (not necessarily this current nation/state) AND be fulfillment to the Church? Does it have to be either or?

[gcdonner]

There is some discussion in the early pages of the Israel-Hamas thread:

No

I agree. It is absolutely astounding to me how much energy has been used up in the past several generations of Christian writers, preachers, and leaders speculating and pontificating about the prophetic significance of the modern nation of Israel.

My personal opinion is the "spiritual" gymnastics people apply to scripture in order to cut Israel out of God future promises are much more of a speculative approach to reading the Bible. I don't however, believe everything Israel does is "God ordained" or "prophecy-fulfilled". People seem to jump to that conclusion everytime I say I see a future for Israel...why?

Jeremiah 31 finishes by stating God will not cast off "all the seed Israel..." FOREVER. I've heard all kinds of views on this in order to change the meaning of the word "Forever", to mean not forever. All of it seems like they just want the church to be a new version of "Israel" or "Jew" which makes zero sense to me given the amount of time and energy Paul put into stating we Gentiles don't have to be Jews. Can't there be blessing for a future prophetic Israel (not necessarily this current nation/state) AND be fulfillment to the Church? Does it have to be either or?

Did you read my post above about "all Israel"?

[Nomad]

There is some discussion in the early pages of the Israel-Hamas thread:

My personal opinion is the "spiritual" gymnastics people apply to scripture in order to cut Israel out of God future promises are much more of a speculative approach to reading the Bible. I don't however, believe everything Israel does is "God ordained" or "prophecy-fulfilled". People seem to jump to that conclusion everytime I say I see a future for Israel...why?

Jeremiah 31 finishes by stating God will not cast off "all the seed Israel..." FOREVER. I've heard all kinds of views on this in order to change the meaning of the word "Forever", to mean not forever. All of it seems like they just want the church to be a new version of "Israel" or "Jew" which makes zero sense to me given the amount of time and energy Paul put into stating we Gentiles don't have to be Jews. Can't there be blessing for a future prophetic Israel (not necessarily this current nation/state) AND be fulfillment to the Church? Does it have to be either or?

Did you read my post above about "all Israel"?

Yes. I just have a different view than you do on how to interpret it I guess....