The Twelve Tribes in Prophecy

[mike]

It seems though that the descendants of Isaac were the "children of promise".

Exactly, not the children of the flesh which the Apostle himself equates with natural Israel.

It still all boils down to the fact that Jesus is the Way, no matter what your physical heritage may be. It all comes through the "promise of the Spirit", for as Paul says again, "the flesh profiteth nothing".

You need to understand that I agree that Jesus is the only Way, and that the natural branches, who are not us, must come to Christ in order to become spiritual children of Abraham, such as we are. But in the meantime, we should pray that the natural branches, who have been cut off, should look on Him whom they have pierced and turn to Christ so that they, like us, might be grafted in.
The physical heritage of the Jews, at this point, is the reason for the strife and the hatred in the Middle East.

Do you believe the Jews have a divine right to the land of Palestine now regardless of whether they turn to Christ or not?

[silentreader]

Exactly, not the children of the flesh which the Apostle himself equates with natural Israel.

It still all boils down to the fact that Jesus is the Way, no matter what your physical heritage may be. It all comes through the "promise of the Spirit", for as Paul says again, "the flesh profiteth nothing".

You need to understand that I agree that Jesus is the only Way, and that the natural branches, who are not us, must come to Christ in order to become spiritual children of Abraham, such as we are. But in the meantime, we should pray that the natural branches, who have been cut off, should look on Him whom they have pierced and turn to Christ so that they, like us, might be grafted in.
The physical heritage of the Jews, at this point, is the reason for the strife and the hatred in the Middle East.

Do you believe the Jews have a divine right to the land of Palestine now regardless of whether they turn to Christ or not?

Only if Jesus is their King and sitting on the throne of David in the millennial kingdom. In their own strength, no. But their very presence in the land will cause unending conflict until then.

[mike]

You need to understand that I agree that Jesus is the only Way, and that the natural branches, who are not us, must come to Christ in order to become spiritual children of Abraham, such as we are. But in the meantime, we should pray that the natural branches, who have been cut off, should look on Him whom they have pierced and turn to Christ so that they, like us, might be grafted in.
The physical heritage of the Jews, at this point, is the reason for the strife and the hatred in the Middle East.

Do you believe the Jews have a divine right to the land of Palestine now regardless of whether they turn to Christ or not?

Only if Jesus is their King and sitting on the throne of David in the millennial kingdom. In their own strength, no. But their very presence in the land will cause unending conflict until then.

I'm asking about now, in the present. Do you believe they have a divine right to the land now?

[silentreader]

Do you believe the Jews have a divine right to the land of Palestine now regardless of whether they turn to Christ or not?

Only if Jesus is their King and sitting on the throne of David in the millennial kingdom. In their own strength, no. But their very presence in the land will cause unending conflict until then.

I'm asking about now, in the present. Do you believe they have a divine right to the land now?

And that was the question I answered.

[mike]

Only if Jesus is their King and sitting on the throne of David in the millennial kingdom. In their own strength, no. But their very presence in the land will cause unending conflict until then.

I'm asking about now, in the present. Do you believe they have a divine right to the land now?

And that was the question I answered.

OK, since Jesus isn't their king and sitting on the throne, and this isn't the millennial kingdom, I would understand you to say no. What would you say to the many Christians who champion the right of Israel to to land today, even though they have not turned to Christ, and He isn't sitting on the throne of David?

[silentreader]

I'm asking about now, in the present. Do you believe they have a divine right to the land now?

And that was the question I answered.

OK, since Jesus isn't their king and sitting on the throne, and this isn't the millennial kingdom, I would understand you to say no. What would you say to the many Christians who champion the right of Israel to to land today, even though they have not turned to Christ, and He isn't sitting on the throne of David?

I am very much not a Zionist, personally. Anything that has to do with Israel and the land is a different "stream" than redemption in Jesus Christ. Israel cannot achieve its fulness unless it repents and turns to the Messiah that they once rejected. Then having the "Divine Right" to the land is peripheral to the necessity of salvation. The Church cannot fulfill its purpose if it prays for Israel's return to the land instead of Israel's redemption by the Messiah. Ours is a ministry of (spiritual) reconciliation. The reconciliation of Israel is an important part of that field. I believe it harms the witness and power of the church by focusing on the land rather than the redemption.
Jesus was portrayed as "The Lion of the Tribe of Judah" and as "The Lamb of God that Taketh Away the Sin of the World". The Jews wanted the Lion, but the Lamb had to do its work first. They rejected the Lamb, and lost the Lion as well.
Now they still have to receive the Lamb first, and then we'll see.....

[mike]

I am very much not a Zionist, personally. Anything that has to do with Israel and the land is a different "stream" than redemption in Jesus Christ. Israel cannot achieve its fulness unless it repents and turns to the Messiah that they once rejected. Then having the "Divine Right" to the land is peripheral to the necessity of salvation. The Church cannot fulfill its purpose if it prays for Israel's return to the land instead of Israel's redemption by the Messiah. Ours is a ministry of (spiritual) reconciliation. The reconciliation of Israel is an important part of that field. I believe it harms the witness and power of the church by focusing on the land rather than the redemption.
Jesus was portrayed as "The Lion of the Tribe of Judah" and as "The Lamb of God that Taketh Away the Sin of the World". The Jews wanted the Lion, but the Lamb had to do its work first. They rejected the Lamb, and lost the Lion as well.
Now they still have to receive the Lamb first, and then we'll see.....

OK, I understand your perspective. That is a different view from Zionism. I still don't understand God as having different "streams" for Jews and Gentiles, but I find your perspective a lot more palatable than some of the popular views of Israel among Christians these days.

[silentreader]

I am very much not a Zionist, personally. Anything that has to do with Israel and the land is a different "stream" than redemption in Jesus Christ. Israel cannot achieve its fulness unless it repents and turns to the Messiah that they once rejected. Then having the "Divine Right" to the land is peripheral to the necessity of salvation. The Church cannot fulfill its purpose if it prays for Israel's return to the land instead of Israel's redemption by the Messiah. Ours is a ministry of (spiritual) reconciliation. The reconciliation of Israel is an important part of that field. I believe it harms the witness and power of the church by focusing on the land rather than the redemption.
Jesus was portrayed as "The Lion of the Tribe of Judah" and as "The Lamb of God that Taketh Away the Sin of the World". The Jews wanted the Lion, but the Lamb had to do its work first. They rejected the Lamb, and lost the Lion as well.
Now they still have to receive the Lamb first, and then we'll see.....

OK, I understand your perspective. That is a different view from Zionism. I still don't understand God as having different "streams" for Jews and Gentiles, but I find your perspective a lot more palatable than some of the popular views of Israel among Christians these days.

The 2 different "streams" are "land" and "redemption." In other words Jews on the one hand for the land, (and predominantly secular right now), and on the other hand the redeemed, consisting of "whosever will", whether Jew or Gentile.

[gcdonner]

It seems though that the descendants of Isaac were the "children of promise".

Exactly, not the children of the flesh which the Apostle himself equates with natural Israel.

It still all boils down to the fact that Jesus is the Way, no matter what your physical heritage may be. It all comes through the "promise of the Spirit", for as Paul says again, "the flesh profiteth nothing".

You need to understand that I agree that Jesus is the only Way, and that the natural branches, who are not us, must come to Christ in order to become spiritual children of Abraham, such as we are. But in the meantime, we should pray that the natural branches, who have been cut off, should look on Him whom they have pierced and turn to Christ so that they, like us, might be grafted in.
The physical heritage of the Jews, at this point, is the reason for the strife and the hatred in the Middle East.

It is a natural part of their rejection of Christ and I do pray for them, just like any other people group on the face of planet earth, and especially those in this country who have heard and rejected. There, is, however, no particular place in prophecy for them beyond being "grafted in". The land promises that so many focus on were part of the OC and not of the NC. The OC is gone, and the NC promises go back to Abraham by faith in Christ. They are spiritually applied and spiritually seen.
"Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

[gcdonner]

Jesus was portrayed as "The Lion of the Tribe of Judah" and as "The Lamb of God that Taketh Away the Sin of the World". The Jews wanted the Lion, but the Lamb had to do its work first. They rejected the Lamb, and lost the Lion as well.
Now they still have to receive the Lamb first, and then we'll see.....

There is nothing to "see". All of the land promises were under the OC, which is totally "vanished". The whole problem in the Middle East is the sons of Abraham of the flesh are still fighting over the land, which has no eternal value. Zionism did not help the "Jews". The ignorance of Christianity has made them what they are today, still looking for what they no longer have a claim to. There will never be peace for them outside of Christ.