The Twelve Tribes in Prophecy

[barnhart]

Here is a very simple fact that ought to end this subject discussion for anyone that wants to do a simple study of genealogies . Based on simple math it is very likely that the vast majority of the world’s population particularly anyone of European, middle eastern and North African descent trace themselves at lease once to one of the 12 tribes.
Prove me wrong.

I don't think it will end any discussions but I agree with the suggestion that most people with ancestors who lived in Europe in the last 1800 years have Jewish ancestors.

[appleman2006]

Here is a very simple fact that ought to end this subject discussion for anyone that wants to do a simple study of genealogies . Based on simple math it is very likely that the vast majority of the world’s population particularly anyone of European, middle eastern and North African descent trace themselves at lease once to one of the 12 tribes.
Prove me wrong.

I don't think it will end any discussions but I agree with the suggestion that most people with ancestors who lived in Europe in the last 1800 years have Jewish ancestors.

John more or less verified my point with his diagram. And while it is true that for all of us there are many repeats in the first million keep in mind that for each generation from there on it continues to double. The chance that not one of those traces back to Jacob is imo nil.
And so until someone can give me a good answer as to who is included in the promises to Israel I find this whole debate to be missing the point

[appleman2006]

Here is a very simple fact that ought to end this subject discussion for anyone that wants to do a simple study of genealogies . Based on simple math it is very likely that the vast majority of the world’s population particularly anyone of European, middle eastern and North African descent trace themselves at lease once to one of the 12 tribes.
Prove me wrong.

Prove your point! You can't and neither can the opposing view. That is a strawman argument. Next subject?

Not prove perhaps but if you check out John’s diagram and my last post you will see that from a pure logical view what I am saying makes sense.

[gcdonner]

Here is a very simple fact that ought to end this subject discussion for anyone that wants to do a simple study of genealogies . Based on simple math it is very likely that the vast majority of the world’s population particularly anyone of European, middle eastern and North African descent trace themselves at lease once to one of the 12 tribes.
Prove me wrong.

Prove your point! You can't and neither can the opposing view. That is a strawman argument. Next subject?

Not prove perhaps but if you check out John’s diagram and my last post you will see that from a pure logical view what I am saying makes sense.

What is the point of Jewish ancestry? They have no special promises from God apart from Jesus Christ.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Don't take my word for it, take God's Word for it.
Y'all are trying to drag the Old Covenant back into the picture when it has been done away with. ALL those of Judaism are disobedient and have been since AD70. They cannot fulfill the law because they have no sacrifices nor priests nor anything otherwise that would be acceptable to God. They remain outside of grace as long as they remain in unbelief.
The NC replaced the OC in AD70. The passage below was written shortly before it "vanished away".

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

No amount of human effort or planning or red heifers or anything else will EVER restore the OC.

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

[silentreader]

Prove your point! You can't and neither can the opposing view. That is a strawman argument. Next subject?

Not prove perhaps but if you check out John’s diagram and my last post you will see that from a pure logical view what I am saying makes sense.

What is the point of Jewish ancestry? They have no special promises from God apart from Jesus Christ.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Don't take my word for it, take God's Word for it.
Y'all are trying to drag the Old Covenant back into the picture when it has been done away with. ALL those of Judaism are disobedient and have been since AD70. They cannot fulfill the law because they have no sacrifices nor priests nor anything otherwise that would be acceptable to God. They remain outside of grace as long as they remain in unbelief.
The NC replaced the OC in AD70. The passage below was written shortly before it "vanished away".

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

No amount of human effort or planning or red heifers or anything else will EVER restore the OC.

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Romans 11:11-24

Gentiles Grafted In
11 I say then, did they stumble so as to fall? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fullness be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 And if the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast against them, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right! They were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be haughty, but fear, 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

[JohnHurt]

Here is a very simple fact that ought to end this subject discussion for anyone that wants to do a simple study of genealogies . Based on simple math it is very likely that the vast majority of the world’s population particularly anyone of European, middle eastern and North African descent trace themselves at lease once to one of the 12 tribes.
Prove me wrong.

I don't think it will end any discussions but I agree with the suggestion that most people with ancestors who lived in Europe in the last 1800 years have Jewish ancestors.

John more or less verified my point with his diagram. And while it is true that for all of us there are many repeats in the first million keep in mind that for each generation from there on it continues to double. The chance that not one of those traces back to Jacob is imo nil.
And so until someone can give me a good answer as to who is included in the promises to Israel I find this whole debate to be missing the point

One way I try to understand all of this, is that Israel is the treasure hidden in a field, and Christ purchased the entire field to obtain the treasure. Matt 13:44. In a few verses prior, Christ tells us that the field is the world. Mt. 13:38. So I understand that Christ died to redeem Israel and opened the way of salvation to the world.

Also:

Isaiah 49:(6) And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

I believe that the blessings God gave Israel have followed Christianity, and have been a light to the entire world.

If you study history and the Bible, it appears that the Christian Nations have inherited the blessings given to Jacob/Israel, such great agricultural wealth (Gen 27:28), with this passed on to Joseph (Deut 33:13-16). Is it a coincidence that the US, Canada, Australia, NZ, and Ukraine - that these nations are blessed with great agricultural harvest, while at the same time they are under spiritual and physical attack by the Anti-Christ?

2nd Samuel 7:10 tells us that God promised David that He would appoint a new place for Israel, outside of Palestine.

Without going into all of the promises that God gave Israel that are now found in Christianity, you will find few if any of God's promises that are fulfilled only in the Jewish State of Israel.

If you study the rise of Zionism in the late 1800's, many Jews were against it, and saw Judaism as something cultural and NOT racial. But it was the Rothchild banking family that pushed the British government to issue the Balfour Declaration to establish the State of Israel, against the wishes of many Jews of that time, and of all the Palestinian people. Jews and Palestinians had lived in peace in Palestine for many years before the Zionists destroyed that peace forever. And the Zionist now wage war on the Palestinians based on race, which fuels anti-Semitism - against all Jews - worldwide.

Not every Jew believes Zionism or wants war with Palestine, and you can find many "Jews against Zionism" on the internet. The media calls these anti-Zionist Jews "anti-Semitic" - a smear word to keep you from thinking about the real problems.

Zionism is racism according to the UN Resolution 242, yet John Hagee and other pro-Zionist Christian pastors have Christians supporting racist Zionism based on various Bible passages, which they take out of context.

The ironic thing is, since the Palestinian people are descendants of Abraham, through Hagar and Ishmael, they are a Semitic people through the line of Shem, and anyone harming them is therefore "anti-Semitic".

Yet the Ashkenazi Jews take their name from "Ashkenaz", a son of Gomer through Japheth, who was not a descendant of Shem. Gen 10:3.

So it looks like the "non-Semitic" Ashkenazi people may be committing "anti-Semitism" against the Semitic Palestinian people to supposedly stop "anti-Semitism".

Go figure.

We really have to be careful with these "smear words", as these words can override our critical thinking abilities. No one wants to be called a "smear word", and so "in horror", we don't investigate whatever truth is being hidden behind them. So that is where I look first.

[silentreader]

I don't think it will end any discussions but I agree with the suggestion that most people with ancestors who lived in Europe in the last 1800 years have Jewish ancestors.

John more or less verified my point with his diagram. And while it is true that for all of us there are many repeats in the first million keep in mind that for each generation from there on it continues to double. The chance that not one of those traces back to Jacob is imo nil.
And so until someone can give me a good answer as to who is included in the promises to Israel I find this whole debate to be missing the point

One way I try to understand all of this, is that Israel is the treasure hidden in a field, and Christ purchased the entire field to obtain the treasure. Matt 13:44. In a few verses prior, Christ tells us that the field is the world. Mt. 13:38. So I understand that Christ died to redeem Israel and opened the way of salvation to the world.

Also:

Isaiah 49:(6) And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

I believe that the blessings God gave Israel have followed Christianity, and have been a light to the entire world.

If you study history and the Bible, it appears that the Christian Nations have inherited the blessings given to Jacob/Israel, such great agricultural wealth (Gen 27:28), with this passed on to Joseph (Deut 33:13-16). Is it a coincidence that the US, Canada, Australia, NZ, and Ukraine - that these nations are blessed with great agricultural harvest, while at the same time they are under spiritual and physical attack by the Anti-Christ?

2nd Samuel 7:10 tells us that God promised David that He would appoint a new place for Israel, outside of Palestine.

Without going into all of the promises that God gave Israel that are now found in Christianity, you will find few if any of God's promises that are fulfilled only in the Jewish State of Israel.

If you study the rise of Zionism in the late 1800's, many Jews were against it, and saw Judaism as something cultural and NOT racial. But it was the Rothchild banking family that pushed the British government to issue the Balfour Declaration to establish the State of Israel, against the wishes of many Jews of that time, and of all the Palestinian people. Jews and Palestinians had lived in peace in Palestine for many years before the Zionists destroyed that peace forever. And the Zionist now wage war on the Palestinians based on race, which fuels anti-Semitism - against all Jews - worldwide.

Not every Jew believes Zionism or wants war with Palestine, and you can find many "Jews against Zionism" on the internet. The media calls these anti-Zionist Jews "anti-Semitic" - a smear word to keep you from thinking about the real problems.

Zionism is racism according to the UN Resolution 242, yet John Hagee and other pro-Zionist Christian pastors have Christians supporting racist Zionism based on various Bible passages, which they take out of context.

The ironic thing is, since the Palestinian people are descendants of Abraham, through Hagar and Ishmael, they are a Semitic people through the line of Shem, and anyone harming them is therefore "anti-Semitic".

Yet the Ashkenazi Jews take their name from "Ashkenaz", a son of Gomer through Japheth, who was not a descendant of Shem. Gen 10:3.

So it looks like the "non-Semitic" Ashkenazi people may be committing "anti-Semitism" against the Semitic Palestinian people to supposedly stop "anti-Semitism".

Go figure.

We really have to be careful with these "smear words", as these words can override our critical thinking abilities. No one wants to be called a "smear word", and so "in horror", we don't investigate whatever truth is being hidden behind them. So that is where I look first.

It seems though that the descendants of Isaac were the "children of promise".

[gcdonner]

Not prove perhaps but if you check out John’s diagram and my last post you will see that from a pure logical view what I am saying makes sense.

What is the point of Jewish ancestry? They have no special promises from God apart from Jesus Christ.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Don't take my word for it, take God's Word for it.
Y'all are trying to drag the Old Covenant back into the picture when it has been done away with. ALL those of Judaism are disobedient and have been since AD70. They cannot fulfill the law because they have no sacrifices nor priests nor anything otherwise that would be acceptable to God. They remain outside of grace as long as they remain in unbelief.
The NC replaced the OC in AD70. The passage below was written shortly before it "vanished away".

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

No amount of human effort or planning or red heifers or anything else will EVER restore the OC.

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Romans 11:11-24

Gentiles Grafted In
11 I say then, did they stumble so as to fall? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fullness be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 And if the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast against them, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right! They were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be haughty, but fear, 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

I am not boasting against the Jews, but you only prove my point, that they, like us, must be grafted into the tree who is Jesus, the root of Jesse and in whom all the earth must be found to be saved. There is salvation in no other name. Jesus clearly stated:

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[gcdonner]

It seems though that the descendants of Isaac were the "children of promise".

Exactly, not the children of the flesh which the Apostle himself equates with natural Israel.

It still all boils down to the fact that Jesus is the Way, no matter what your physical heritage may be. It all comes through the "promise of the Spirit", for as Paul says again, "the flesh profiteth nothing".

[silentreader]

It seems though that the descendants of Isaac were the "children of promise".

Exactly, not the children of the flesh which the Apostle himself equates with natural Israel.

It still all boils down to the fact that Jesus is the Way, no matter what your physical heritage may be. It all comes through the "promise of the Spirit", for as Paul says again, "the flesh profiteth nothing".

You need to understand that I agree that Jesus is the only Way, and that the natural branches, who are not us, must come to Christ in order to become spiritual children of Abraham, such as we are. But in the meantime, we should pray that the natural branches, who have been cut off, should look on Him whom they have pierced and turn to Christ so that they, like us, might be grafted in.
The physical heritage of the Jews, at this point, is the reason for the strife and the hatred in the Middle East.