Why Black ?

[Sudsy]

It seems to me the more zeal a Christian has in serving and pleasing the Lord (especially those described as holiness or conservative), the more there is a danger of slipping into their own version of laws. This is how the OT Israelites tried to live in a way they thought was acceptable to God.

Paul was one of these zealous religious types. He regarded himself a Pharisee of the Pharisees. Out to force his religious ways on everyone. But then Paul was converted. And in Romans 10 we read Paul saying that Christ ended that law. The new way to live was to have a heart change and be led by the Spirit in how God wants us to live.

So whether to drive a black car to be different from what the world is doing, to me, is questionable and could be slipping into an additional, new set of rules that comes from trying to develop a practise separate from what those English unbelievers are doing.

The other day I saw some Mennonite ladies eating soft vanilla, Dairy Queen, ice cream. Their dress style was very non-conforming to modern styles (well, except for modern, colourful running shoes) and yet they were eating the most popular flavor there is of ice cream. This is just one of many examples of inconsistency there is to be non-conforming to the world.

And as was just posted about having pin stripes on a car. One doesn't need hub caps or chrome so where is the line crossed when being a conformist ?

I thought this article on being zealous for God was worth considering-

https://www.crosswalk.com/faith/spiritu ... e_vignette

[Ken]

It seems to me the more zeal a Christian has in serving and pleasing the Lord (especially those described as holiness or conservative), the more there is a danger of slipping into their own version of laws. This is how the OT Israelites tried to live in a way they thought was acceptable to God.

Paul was one of these zealous religious types. He regarded himself a Pharisee of the Pharisees. Out to force his religious ways on everyone. But then Paul was converted. And in Romans 10 we read Paul saying that Christ ended that law. The new way to live was to have a heart change and be led by the Spirit in how God wants us to live.

So whether to drive a black car to be different from what the world is doing, to me, is questionable and could be slipping into an additional, new set of rules that comes from trying to develop a practise separate from what those English unbelievers are doing.

The other day I saw some Mennonite ladies eating soft vanilla, Dairy Queen, ice cream. Their dress style was very non-conforming to modern styles (well, except for modern, colourful running shoes) and yet they were eating the most popular flavor there is of ice cream. This is just one of many examples of inconsistency there is to be non-conforming to the world.

And as was just posted about having pin stripes on a car. One doesn't need hub caps or chrome so where is the line crossed when being a conformist ?

I thought this article on being zealous for God was worth considering-

https://www.crosswalk.com/faith/spiritu ... e_vignette

Customs of dress and comportment are among the most common things that religious (and ethnic) groups adhere to around the world. In my view they are part of what makes the world a more interesting place. And they can be valuable for their own sake.

Where I think some Anabaptist groups go wrong is in conflating customs and traditions with scriptural mandates. They are not the same thing.

[Sudsy]

Customs of dress and comportment are among the most common things that religious (and ethnic) groups adhere to around the world. In my view they are part of what makes the world a more interesting place. And they can be valuable for their own sake.

When it comes to Christianity, it seems to me how we live (how we shine our lights in a dark world) in scripture is focused more on doing good deeds and sharing the Gospel (the Good News) with others. The Pharisees had some very strict ways of dress and comportment, yet Jesus pointed out to them what they were lacking in their religious zeal. They were big on being seen (pride) in their religious habits both in their dress and their behaviour. What they were missing Jesus explained in the Matthew texts on the 'woes' .

That might be an interesting thread to discuss how the 'woes of the Phariseees' in Jesus time on earth, have modern day application to not falling into the same trap of emphasizing the letter of the law and missing it's spirit. The Pharisees were even keen on making converts to their religion but their religion was empty and a hindrance to people following Jesus.

Where I think some Anabaptist groups go wrong is in conflating customs and traditions with scriptural mandates. They are not the same thing.

Agree and this occurs with some in other groups as well.

[Ken]

Customs of dress and comportment are among the most common things that religious (and ethnic) groups adhere to around the world. In my view they are part of what makes the world a more interesting place. And they can be valuable for their own sake.

When it comes to Christianity, it seems to me how we live (how we shine our lights in a dark world) in scripture is focused more on doing good deeds and sharing the Gospel (the Good News) with others. The Pharisees had some very strict ways of dress and comportment, yet Jesus pointed out to them what they were lacking in their religious zeal. They were big on being seen (pride) in their religious habits both in their dress and their behaviour. What they were missing Jesus explained in the Matthew texts on the 'woes' .

That might be an interesting thread to discuss how the 'woes of the Phariseees' in Jesus time on earth, have modern day application to not falling into the same trap of emphasizing the letter of the law and missing it's spirit. The Pharisees were even keen on making converts to their religion but their religion was empty and a hindrance to people following Jesus.

Where I think some Anabaptist groups go wrong is in conflating customs and traditions with scriptural mandates. They are not the same thing.

Agree and this occurs with some in other groups as well.

I don't criticize groups for adhering to customs of dress and culture. I tend to think that is generally a good thing. Traditions have value. Where I tend to disagree is with the notion that one set of fairly arbitrary rules is superior or more Biblical than another. I'll give you a specific example. I worked in Guatemala in the late 1980s and early 1990s and there was a conservative Mennonite group working not far away. For some reason they spent a lot of effort getting ethnic Mayan Guatemalans to abandon their traditional dress and convert to ethnic Menno cape dresses and such.

So, for example, here is a school that they founded in a Mayan community in rural Guatemala. All the kids are dressed Menno style, probably with bolts of polyester fabric imported from Bangladesh or someplace.



Absent Menno missionary influences, this is how Guatemalan school children in that region normally dress wearing hand-woven fabrics made by their mothers and grandmothers according to ancient traditions and designs that they hold dear.





Anyone here care to explain how the Menno dress is more Biblical and Godly than traditional handmade Mayan dress?

I frankly suspect this is part of the reason why Mennonites are a tiny infinitesimal fraction of Christianity in Guatemala despite over half a century of mission work whereas Pentecostals are spreading like wildfire. The Pentecostal churches are almost entirely home-grown and don't try to impose outside values and customs on what is already a very deep and rich culture with its own valued traditions.

[Josh]

Just so you know, people in Guatemala these days just wear second hand clothes shipped in from the U.S., as does the rest of the third world, because we throw so much clothing away.

[ken_sylvania]

Just so you know, some people in Guatemala these days just wear second hand clothes shipped in from the U.S., as does the rest of the third world, because we throw so much clothing away.

Fixed it for you.

[Ken]

Just so you know, people in Guatemala these days just wear second hand clothes shipped in from the U.S., as does the rest of the third world, because we throw so much clothing away.

That's true to some extent in the eastern (Latino) parts of Guatemala that have never been indigenous, as well as the cities. But not true of the Mayan villages in the western highlands and Coban where conservative Mennonite missions are working.

The pictures I posted above are contemporary, not something historic.

[Josh]

Just so you know, people in Guatemala these days just wear second hand clothes shipped in from the U.S., as does the rest of the third world, because we throw so much clothing away.

That's true to some extent in the eastern (Latino) parts of Guatemala that have never been indigenous, as well as the cities. But not true of the Mayan villages in the western highlands and Coban where conservative Mennonite missions are working.

The pictures I posted above are contemporary, not something historic.

To get an answer to your question, you'd have to ask someone from a church group that does what you described above, and I doubt any such people are posting here on this forum. (My church group doesn't do this, for example. And I'm in one of the more conservative groups relative to other posters here.)

[Ken]

Just so you know, people in Guatemala these days just wear second hand clothes shipped in from the U.S., as does the rest of the third world, because we throw so much clothing away.

That's true to some extent in the eastern (Latino) parts of Guatemala that have never been indigenous, as well as the cities. But not true of the Mayan villages in the western highlands and Coban where conservative Mennonite missions are working.

The pictures I posted above are contemporary, not something historic.

To get an answer to your question, you'd have to ask someone from a church group that does what you described above, and I doubt any such people are posting here on this forum. (My church group doesn't do this, for example. And I'm in one of the more conservative groups relative to other posters here.)

It is more of a comment then a question. People are free to wear whatever clothing they want both here and in Guatemala. Or dress their kids how they want. And if there are Guatemalans who choose to join conservative Menno churches in Guatemala and want to dress like they are from rural Holmes County instead of rural Guatemala, or want to dress their kids that way. That is fine. It is a big world and there should be room for everyone.

I just question the point of promoting what are clearly European ethnic Menno fashions in a country like Guatemala which has its own rich traditions. You can actually travel in the Mayan highlands of Guatemala and tell which village and region and Mayan dialect people speak from their clothing, just like you can travel through Holmes County or Lancaster county and identify which specific Anabaptist subgroup people belong to based on their clothing, covering styles, etc. It is exactly the same thing. I think those traditions (both here and there) have value and I don't like to see them undermined for specious reasons.

I expect part of it is that missionaries like to show their progress through photos of converts who look exactly like the folks back home who are paying the bill for the mission projects. And people at home who are funding mission projects like to see the same.

Is it a big deal in the grand scheme of things? No, of course not. But I suspect that this sort of "cultural imperialism" if you will is partly why conservative Menno mission groups have scarcely amounted to a drop in the bucket compared to say Pentecostals and other evangelical groups who don't do that sort of thing. People like to hear about Jesus. But I suspect not so much about how the clothes they have made by hand and worn for centuries and value are all wrong.

[PetrChelcicky]

As for "plain", my justification has always been that "plain" means "not fashionable". Everything is okay when it is no more the fashion of the world.
- Reading this here I have a second thought: "plain" mey mean "not competitive". Fashion is not only worldly in itself, but above all it promotes competition: "I try to be more fashionable than you", which leads to conspicuous sonsumption and destroys the communal spirit.
Is that correct?