Poll: Is it religious persecution... ???

General Christian Theology

In regards to the OP question...

Yes
0
No votes
No
12
75%
Not sure
1
6%
Other
3
19%
 
Total votes: 16

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Josh
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Re: Poll: Is it religious persecution... ???

Post by Josh »

Heirbyadoption wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 10:46 amInteresting. Like I said, I had long been under the impression there was a hard and fast restriction for COGICM members against greeting those outside the church (to which they made their baptismal vow, defined in practice by the COGICM membership) with the Holy Kiss. Thanks for clarifying otherwise.
I can't find it was ever in writing but people used to never greet outsiders. It is still quite rare today. I suspect the reason is that most people are not enthusiastic about greeting at all, and thus don't go out of their way to do it if they don't feel obligated to do so.

I might add that I prefer to greet without touching the "corner of the lips" (or worse), but respect tradition and thus continue to greet in the traditional Western style with other cogicm members. Outside of that, I prefer a more Eastern-style greeting (and, it would seem, so does the greetee).
On that note, does the COGICM have any formal explanation or writings for the concept of permitting members to greet nonHoldemans as brothers in Christ, but not commune with them (ie. why communion should be limited to only a portion of those whom you admittedly recognize as being "in Christ")? My question is actually for anybody or any group who practices (or grew up practicing) similar (will greet outside membership but only commune within)
As far as me attending another communion service, the problem is that we are not united with the church and don't necessarily affirm their doctrine and practice. (If we did, we would be in "full communion", which almost happened with the Tampico Amish, and which more recently happened with a group of believers in the Congo; they got ahold of old tracts and had been trying to follow cogicm doctrines and practices for years. Eventually they got in contact with a missionary from Nigeria. He didn't feel rebaptism was necessary but the Congolese believers thought it was, so they did it.)

As far as someone who isn't a member of a local congregation joining a communion service... as stated earlier, participation at communion even for a local member of the congregation requires attending a week or two of revival services, meeting with both your own leaders and the outside visiting leaders, personal preparation and examination, most likely getting up and sharing how your life has been going spiritually for the last year, and also being present enough in your local congregation for the last few months that other members feel like they know you. If an outsider chose to do that, well, they'd basically be part of the local congregation by that point.
, as this has been part of my study of late for an upcoming message on the practice of the Holy Kiss. Thanks in advance.
I've always found it odd that the Holy Kiss ended up, in Anabaptist circles, of being equivalent to communion, which seem like two different things to me. (When practicing the avoidance, someone doesn't greet or shake hands, but I certainly don't feel I can only shake my right hand with someone who is a fellow church member.) Instead, it should be a Christian greeting between any two believers who feel they follow the same Jesus, even if they are not united on all points of doctrine and practice.

The "weaponised" Holy Kiss that seems to eventually occur in some Anabaptist circles seems particularly unchristlike to me.
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PetrChelcicky
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Re: Poll: Is it religious persecution... ???

Post by PetrChelcicky »

Ernie,
my principal objection is that we as Christians are citizens in heaven and have no claim on the earth (even if we can appeal to a contract or a promise when and insofar as it is given).
That means that Christians have no reason to claim other Christians to recognize them or appreciate them or non-discriminate them. We have to take other people's feelings just as they are. (Of course we can try to improve their opinion of us.)
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Ernie
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Re: Poll: Is it religious persecution... ???

Post by Ernie »

Heirbyadoption wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 10:46 am My question is actually for anybody or any group who practices (or grew up practicing) similar (will greet outside membership but only commune within), as this has been part of my study of late for an upcoming message on the practice of the Holy Kiss. Thanks in advance.
I think this describes most Mennonites who practice the holy kiss as a greeting, not just at communion. It describes our church as well. We kiss strangers who wish to practice the Holy Kiss and we do not interview them beforehand. Now if we knew they were living in sin, that is a different story...
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Josh
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Re: Poll: Is it religious persecution... ???

Post by Josh »

Ernie wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 6:48 pm
Heirbyadoption wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 10:46 am My question is actually for anybody or any group who practices (or grew up practicing) similar (will greet outside membership but only commune within), as this has been part of my study of late for an upcoming message on the practice of the Holy Kiss. Thanks in advance.
I think this describes most Mennonites who practice the holy kiss as a greeting, not just at communion. It describes our church as well. We kiss strangers who wish to practice the Holy Kiss and we do not interview them beforehand. Now if we knew they were living in sin, that is a different story...
I find the practice of doing it only at communion to be very strange, particularly since the scriptures make no connection to the two at all.

Practicing the avoidance is a bit different. I don’t engage in a greeting, a handshake, or eating at the same physical table as someone who was a believer but is now living in unrepentant, knowing sin. But I am very cautious about ext extending the avoidance outside my own fellowship. There are one or two people who aren’t members in my church I nonetheless practice the avoidance with.
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Re: Poll: Is it religious persecution... ???

Post by Heirbyadoption »

Ernie wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 6:48 pm
Heirbyadoption wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 10:46 am My question is actually for anybody or any group who practices (or grew up practicing) similar (will greet outside membership but only commune within), as this has been part of my study of late for an upcoming message on the practice of the Holy Kiss. Thanks in advance.
I think this describes most Mennonites who practice the holy kiss as a greeting, not just at communion. It describes our church as well. We kiss strangers who wish to practice the Holy Kiss and we do not interview them beforehand. Now if we knew they were living in sin, that is a different story...
Just finishing the thought, not meaning to rabbit trail, but I do get a growing sense as I mingle among various Anabaptist groups in Franklin Co, and even the Keystone State at large, that Mennos either A. limit the Kiss primarily to communion services, or else B. are slowly dropping it altogether (especially the younger ones, and perhaps partly as a result of A and partly as a result of its lack of use among the broader [American] Christian culture...?). Would that be a fair assessment?
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MaxPC
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Re: Poll: Is it religious persecution... ???

Post by MaxPC »

Heirbyadoption wrote: Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:27 am I think this describes most Mennonites who practice the holy kiss as a greeting, not just at communion. It describes our church as well. We kiss strangers who wish to practice the Holy Kiss and we do not interview them beforehand. Now if we knew they were living in sin, that is a different story...
Just finishing the thought, not meaning to rabbit trail, but I do get a growing sense as I mingle among various Anabaptist groups in Franklin Co, and even the Keystone State at large, that Mennos either A. limit the Kiss primarily to communion services, or else B. are slowly dropping it altogether (especially the younger ones, and perhaps partly as a result of A and partly as a result of its lack of use among the broader [American] Christian culture...?). Would that be a fair assessment?
[/quote]

Perhaps a C for the COVID pandemic has also played a role? Merely guessing.
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Re: Poll: Is it religious persecution... ???

Post by Heirbyadoption »

MaxPC wrote: Thu Aug 31, 2023 12:30 pm
Heirbyadoption wrote: Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:27 am
Ernie wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 6:48 pmI think this describes most Mennonites who practice the holy kiss as a greeting, not just at communion. It describes our church as well. We kiss strangers who wish to practice the Holy Kiss and we do not interview them beforehand. Now if we knew they were living in sin, that is a different story...
Just finishing the thought, not meaning to rabbit trail, but I do get a growing sense as I mingle among various Anabaptist groups in Franklin Co, and even the Keystone State at large, that Mennos either A. limit the Kiss primarily to communion services, or else B. are slowly dropping it altogether (especially the younger ones, and perhaps partly as a result of A and partly as a result of its lack of use among the broader [American] Christian culture...?). Would that be a fair assessment?
Perhaps a C for the COVID pandemic has also played a role? Merely guessing.
Max, it has certainly had an impact in some areas and certain congregations. I noticed this the last few times I went to visit my old home congregation in California - Covid has had a noticeable impact on the frequency of using the Kiss (our strain of Brethren tend to use it more frequently than most Mennos, by way of disclosure) in that congregation, especially among the youth and those who joined the church in the last few years (and who, as a result, would have had significantly less attachment to the practice). They also met outside their meetinghouse for several months with significant distancing, masking, etc. Whereas, on the other hand, with the exception of a few members for a short time, my home congregation here in PA barely skipped a beat on using the Kiss and congregating in some form all the way through Covid, and rarely masked except when ill. Not looking to start a right/wrong/moral discussion on THAT again, just giving context.

But my observations (and resultant question to Ernie) go back over the last decade or two, as relates to a general decline, particular among Anabaptist youth, and especially living in an area where half of the Kiss-using Anabaptists are pretty strict about only greeting their own members (a nod to the early part of this thread, if you will), but have historically used the Kiss consistently (even if mostly among themselves.
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Josh
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Re: Poll: Is it religious persecution... ???

Post by Josh »

Heirbyadoption wrote: Thu Aug 31, 2023 2:30 pmMax, it has certainly had an impact in some areas and certain congregations. I noticed this the last few times I went to visit my old home congregation in California - Covid has had a noticeable impact on the frequency of using the Kiss (our strain of Brethren tend to use it more frequently than most Mennos, by way of disclosure) in that congregation, especially among the youth and those who joined the church in the last few years (and who, as a result, would have had significantly less attachment to the practice). They also met outside their meetinghouse for several months with significant distancing, masking, etc. Whereas, on the other hand, with the exception of a few members for a short time, my home congregation here in PA barely skipped a beat on using the Kiss and congregating in some form all the way through Covid, and rarely masked except when ill. Not looking to start a right/wrong/moral discussion on THAT again, just giving context.

But my observations (and resultant question to Ernie) go back over the last decade or two, as relates to a general decline, particular among Anabaptist youth, and especially living in an area where half of the Kiss-using Anabaptists are pretty strict about only greeting their own members (a nod to the early part of this thread, if you will), but have historically used the Kiss consistently (even if mostly among themselves.
In both my fellowship and in other fellowships around here, many elected to "suspend" the greeting due to concerns about COVID... and this "concern" seemed to last for quite a while, well into 2021. When votes were taken on SurveyMonkey the response was strong (over 80%) to continue such "suspensions".

Now, I know for a fact that many people (indeed a majority) were flouting all the other advice from the establishment about COVID, such as wearing facemasks, maintaining 6' of social distancing, avoiding unnecessary travel, closing workplaces and transitioning to working from home as possible instead of requiring employees to come in, and so on... in fact, it is a mathematical certainty that some of the people protesting against such government requirements and claiming COVID was some kind of conspiracy did, indeed, seem perfectly happy to suspend the greeting indefinitely. (This attitude also extended to temporarily using individual communion cups instead of the common cup.)

Eventually our leadership instructed us that we needed to return to "what has been our custom" and restore common cups, the breaking of a load of bread instead of pre-portioned individual pieces, and engaging in the Christian greeting. But I feel something has been revealed in the laity - both in Mennonite, Brethren, and other circles.
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Josh
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Re: Poll: Is it religious persecution... ???

Post by Josh »

Heirbyadoption wrote: Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:27 amJust finishing the thought, not meaning to rabbit trail, but I do get a growing sense as I mingle among various Anabaptist groups in Franklin Co, and even the Keystone State at large, that Mennos either A. limit the Kiss primarily to communion services, or else B. are slowly dropping it altogether (especially the younger ones, and perhaps partly as a result of A and partly as a result of its lack of use among the broader [American] Christian culture...?). Would that be a fair assessment?
A. and B. certainly do exist, but there is also C. - where it is regularly practiced by both old and young.

A. (limiting the kiss to communion services) is a property of moderate-conservative Mennonite groups (and, one would presume, Brethren who find themselves with a similar attitude as the moderate-conservative). So Mid-Atlantic, Mid-West, many Beachys, and so forth. This is also the case for some Apostolic Christian churches.

B. (abandoning it altogether) is a property of fundamental-conservative and theological-conservative Mennonite groups (and, one would presume, more liberal Brethren, certainly is out of practice amongst many COB, but maybe steve-in-kville could enlighten us about its existence in his wing of Brethren circles, where I presume it only happens during communion/lovefeast). In BMA or RNoC circles it is functionally extinct, being left to one's individual conscience and discretion.

As is the case with transitional Anabaptism, someone in a C. type of church may find their church is transitioning to a B. type of church, and a B. type of church may well transition to an A. type of church, but far more often is that people change groups or choose the side of a division going in the more "assimilated" direction, and the greeting is discarded by the wayside.
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Re: Poll: Is it religious persecution... ???

Post by Ernie »

Josh wrote: Thu Aug 31, 2023 2:39 pm
Heirbyadoption wrote: Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:27 amJust finishing the thought, not meaning to rabbit trail, but I do get a growing sense as I mingle among various Anabaptist groups in Franklin Co, and even the Keystone State at large, that Mennos either A. limit the Kiss primarily to communion services, or else B. are slowly dropping it altogether (especially the younger ones, and perhaps partly as a result of A and partly as a result of its lack of use among the broader [American] Christian culture...?). Would that be a fair assessment?
A. and B. certainly do exist, but there is also C. - where it is regularly practiced by both old and young.

A. (limiting the kiss to communion services) is a property of moderate-conservative Mennonite groups (and, one would presume, Brethren who find themselves with a similar attitude as the moderate-conservative). So Mid-Atlantic, Mid-West, many Beachys, and so forth. This is also the case for some Apostolic Christian churches.

B. (abandoning it altogether) is a property of fundamental-conservative and theological-conservative Mennonite groups (and, one would presume, more liberal Brethren, certainly is out of practice amongst many COB, but maybe steve-in-kville could enlighten us about its existence in his wing of Brethren circles, where I presume it only happens during communion/lovefeast). In BMA or RNoC circles it is functionally extinct, being left to one's individual conscience and discretion.

As is the case with transitional Anabaptism, someone in a C. type of church may find their church is transitioning to a B. type of church, and a B. type of church may well transition to an A. type of church, but far more often is that people change groups or choose the side of a division going in the more "assimilated" direction, and the greeting is discarded by the wayside.
Ultra conservative Mennonites are the most consistent/faithful in practicing the Holy Kiss among from old to young.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
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