Poll: Is it religious persecution... ???

[Ernie]

Is it religious persecution if a group of faithful Christians withholds the right hand of fellowship, the holy kiss, and communion from people who believe and live the following...
...adhere to the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles
...recognize the scriptures as inspired and agree with the Apostles Creed
...walk with God and their neighbors in holiness and love
...eschew violence and political entanglements
...help the widows and fatherless and keep themselves unspotted from the world
...submit to a body of believers (as it relates to matters addressed in the New Testament in contrast to cultural expressions)
???

I'm asking this question in a general way... realizing there may be legitimate exceptions such as not knowing a person well, controversy surrounding an individual, etc.

[Bootstrap]

This depends a GREAT deal on how you define "religious persecution", but it isn't according to my definition.

I think religious groups are free to believe and practice according to their faith, and to decide who is legitimately a member of their group. I would disagree with a group that does the things you describe, but I would not call that "religious persecution".

To me, persecution involves the broader society using violence or discriminating against other, depriving people of their rights, forcing them to asimilate, leave, or live as second class citizens. If your religious group started to make that kind of thing happen in their local community, or lobbied the government to do so, that would be political persecution.

I was once expelled and formally shunned because I reported evidence of sexual abuse to the elders of an intentional community I was part of - only to the elders, not telling anyone else, and with compelling evidence, but it got me formally shunned without further discussion. That was very, very painful, and it was wrong, and the leader's sins came out a year later, but I would not call it religious persecution.

Perhaps you have a different definition in mind?

[Ernie]

I think of religious persecution as depriving someone of something, or hurting them in some way, because of their beliefs.

In this thread, I'm thinking about depriving someone (within the realm of Christian orthodoxy and orthopraxy) of things they should be able to experience.

[Soloist]

I think the reason this really matters is

2Ti 3:12  Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Christians in the plain circles either find persecution around every corner or think that this isn’t always the case and that we are in a time of peace,
Worldly christian’s tend to see persecution only in other countries and deny persecution for anything in the US.
Most seekers have suffered some form of persecution for taking a stand, most Mennonites who leave conservative circles suffer persecution and it’s confirmation that they are right to leave.
Persecution is an ambiguous term and every time I’ve brought up what I have suffered there are those here who make fun of it or state it’s not really persecution.

I don’t see it as persecution to deny someone communion who refuses to be part of you. I see it as misguided to refuse it to someone desiring to be part of you.

[Szdfan]

Here's a definition of religious persecution --

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_persecution

Religious persecution is the systematic mistreatment of an individual or a group of individuals as a response to their religious beliefs or affiliations or their lack thereof.

I think the key word here is "systematic." I think agree with Boot that a religious group practicing it's religious and theological distinctions and refusing to fellowship with Christians outside the group is not religious persecution. However, a religious group systematically treating members of another group as second class citizens and preventing their ability to live their lives in society is religious persecution.

[Szdfan]

I think of religious persecution as depriving someone of something, or hurting them in some way, because of their beliefs.

In this thread, I'm thinking about depriving someone (within the realm of Christian orthodoxy and orthopraxy) of things they should be able to experience.

The question is what do you think someone should be able to experience? What you've described in the OP (right hand of fellowship, the holy kiss, and communion) are membetship distinctives of conservative Anabaptism. Are you saying that CA and CM groups are obligated (or required) to extend these distinctives to everyone who shares the same theological beliefs and the refusal to do so is religious persecution?

[Sudsy]

Is it religious persecution if a group of faithful Christians withholds the right hand of fellowship, the holy kiss, and communion from people who believe and live the following...
...adhere to the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles
...recognize the scriptures as inspired and agree with the Apostles Creed
...walk with God and their neighbors in holiness and love
...eschew violence and political entanglements
...help the widows and fatherless and keep themselves unspotted from the world
...submit to a body of believers (as it relates to matters addressed in the New Testament in contrast to cultural expressions)
???

I'm asking this question in a general way... realizing there may be legitimate exceptions such as not knowing a person well, controversy surrounding an individual, etc.

I have not yet come across a group that could be described by those points listed. To me, these are high ideals but I really doubt any 'group of faithful Christians' have ever attained that level of saintliness.

But to the question asked - I think of 'religious persecution' as more involving a lost sinner persecuting a saint. Treating another professing believer as not qualified for fellowship, a holy kiss and communion (which I take to mean the Lord's Supper), to me, is to sin. Scripture says when taking communion that a 'man should examine himself' to be worthy or not to participate. To not allow another professing believer to join in is, to me, an abuse of the practise of shunning. Closed communion has an 'holier-than-thou' attitude that I don't think Jesus would aprrove of.

[Josh]

Is it religious persecution if a group of faithful Christians withholds the right hand of fellowship, the holy kiss, and communion from people who believe and live the following...
...adhere to the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles
...recognize the scriptures as inspired and agree with the Apostles Creed
...walk with God and their neighbors in holiness and love
...eschew violence and political entanglements
...help the widows and fatherless and keep themselves unspotted from the world
...submit to a body of believers (as it relates to matters addressed in the New Testament in contrast to cultural expressions)
???

I'm asking this question in a general way... realizing there may be legitimate exceptions such as not knowing a person well, controversy surrounding an individual, etc.

No. It is not "religious persecution" to refuse to be a barely-conservative Anabaptist.

It is entirely acceptable for Anabaptists (and nearly all plain and conservative Anabaptists, by the numbers, believe this way) to decide to have close communion (and the holy kiss, right hand of fellowship, marriage, etc.) with people they feel united with in doctrine and practice.

I do not feel that I need to somehow pretend I am united with Charity people, "moderate" Beachys, BMA, etc. when it is obvious they are on a one-way train to the world and don't really have any insight nor plans to get off that train.

Now, with specific individuals if I know their lives very, very well, I will extend the right hand of fellowship and the holy kiss with him (with your list above being the most important points, minus the "submitting to a body of believers" as the moderate-conservative churches he's tried to be a part of have mistreated him and his wife, refused him membership, and generally not adhered to your principles above). I think communion should only take place amongst a group of believers who agree to be members with each other and to form a church, so I only go to communion in my own, local congregation. If I wanted to partake at another congregation, I would transfer my membership first and get to know people there for at least a few months.

[RZehr]

No, it’s not. I suppose our forefathers would have a chuckle at that level of persecution.

[AndersonD]

No, I don't think it's persecution.