Church Organization

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Re: Church Organization

Post by Soloist »

JohnHurt wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 7:51 am Mike,

Justin Martyr does not have the authority to overturn the 4th Commandment and abolish the 7th Day Sabbath. Paul and Constantine also lack this authority.

Either Justin Martyr is wrong, or our understanding of Justin Martyr's words is wrong.
Under that logic, couldn’t the same be said of Paul?
The point I made earlier is that the early Church writers did not reference the writings of Paul until around the time of Constantine. That is the question I asked.

If you know about the time that the first quotations of Paul's writings were used as the doctrines of the church, that would be interesting. I believe it was after the time of Marcion, and became "full blown" under Constantine.

Thanks,

John
That’s an interesting question and I will look up some for you
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Re: Church Organization

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JohnHurt wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 7:53 am Justin Martyr does not have the authority to overturn the 4th Commandment and abolish the 7th Day Sabbath. Paul and Constantine also lack this authority.

Either Justin Martyr is wrong, or our understanding of Justin Martyr's words is wrong.
As I expected. You use Justin Martyr as evidence that the early church fathers rarely quoted Paul's writings (which, even if it were true, is at best an argument from silence and does not address other obvious grounds for the inclusion of Paul in the canon), but when Justin doesn't agree with your view, he is wrong.

The best evidence for the inclusion of Paul's writings in the canon isn't the early church fathers anyway. It's the apostles themselves; references already provided earlier in this thread.
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Re: Church Organization

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Clement of Rome (chapt 5)
12 Let us take the noble examples furnished in our own generation. Through envy and jealousy, the greatest and most righteous pillars [of the Church] have been persecuted and put to death.13 Let us set before our eyes the illustrious14 apostles. Peter, through unrighteous envy, endured not one or two, but numerous labours and when he had at length suffered martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him. Owing to envy, Paul also obtained the reward of patient endurance, after being seven times thrown into captivity,15 compelled16 to flee, and stoned. After preaching both in the east and west, he gained the illustrious reputation due to his faith, having taught righteousness to the whole world, and come to the extreme limit of the west,17 and suffered martyrdom under the prefects.18 Thus was he removed from the world, and went into the holy place, having proved himself a striking example of patience.
Clement of Rome (chapt XLVII)
Take up the epistle of the blessed Apostle Paul. What did he write to you at the time when the Gospel first began to be preached?119 Truly, under the inspiration120 of the Spirit, he wrote to you concerning himself, and Cephas, and Apollos, (1Co 3:13, etc.) because even then parties121 had been formed among you. But that inclination for one above another entailed less guilt upon you, inasmuch as your partialities were then shown towards apostles, already of high reputation, and towards a man whom they had approved. But now reflect who those are that have perverted you, and lessened the renown of your far-famed brotherly love. It is disgraceful, beloved, yea, highly disgraceful, and unworthy of your Christian profession,
Polycarp (chapt 3)
These things, brethren, I write to you concerning righteousness, not because I take anything upon myself, but because ye have invited me to do so. For neither I, nor any other such one, can come up to the wisdom (Comp. 2Pe 3:15) of the blessed and glorified Paul. He, when among you, accurately and stedfastly taught the word of truth in the presence of those who were then alive. And when absent from you, he wrote you a letter,6 which, if you carefully study, you will find to be the means of building you up in that faith which has been given you, and which, being followed by hope, and preceded by love towards God, and Christ, and our neighbour, “is the mother of us all.” (Comp. Gal 4:26) For if any one be inwardly possessed of these graces, he hath fulfilled the command of righteousness, since he that hath love is far from all sin.
(Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians, chapt 6)
I do not issue orders to you, as if I were some great person. For though I am bound for His name, I am not yet perfect in Jesus Christ. For now I begin to be a disciple, and I speak to you as my fellow-servants. For it was needful for me to have been admonished by you in faith, exhortation, patience, and long-suffering. But inasmuch as love suffers me not to be silent in regard to you, I have therefore taken (Comp. Phm 1:8-9) upon me first to exhort you that ye would run together in accordance with the will of God. For even Jesus Christ does all things according to the will of the Father, as He Himself declares in a certain place, “I do always those things that please Him.” (Joh 8:29) Wherefore it behoves us also to live according to the will of God in Christ, and to imitate Him as Paul did. For, says he, “Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.” (1Co 6:1)
Clement of Alexandria (exhortation chapt 9)
they learned by experience, though late, that they could not be saved otherwise than by believing on Jesus. But the Lord, in His love to man, invites all men to the knowledge of the truth, and for this end sends the Paraclete. What, then, is this knowledge? Godliness; and “godliness,” according to Paul, “is profitable for all things, having the promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.” (1Ti 4:8) If eternal salvation were to be sold, for how much, O men, would you propose to purchase it? Were one to estimate the value of the whole of Pactolus, the fabulous river of gold, he would not have reckoned up a price equivalent to salvation.
Clement of Alexandria (exhortation chapt 9)
The Lord is at hand; take care that ye be not apprehended empty.” (Php 4:5) But are ye so devoid of fear, or rather of faith, as not to believe the Lord Himself, or Paul, who in Christ’s stead thus entreats: “Taste and see that Christ is God?”57 Faith will lead you in; experience will teach you; Scripture will train you, for it says, “Come hither, O children; listen to me, and I will teach you the fear of the Lord.” Then, as to those who already believe, it briefly adds, “What man is he that desireth life, that loveth to see good days?” (Psa 34:11
Clement of Alexandria (the instructor chapt 5)
(since he that is tender-hearted is called ἤπιος), as being one that has newly become gentle and meek in conduct. This the blessed Paul most clearly pointed out when he said, “When we might have been burdensome as the apostles of Christ, we were gentle (ἤπιοι) among you, as a nurse cherisheth her children.” (1Th 2:6, 1Th 2:7) The child (νήπιος) is therefore gentle (ἤπιος), and therefore more tender, delicate, and simple, guileless, and destitute of hypocrisy, straightforward and upright in mind, which is the basis of simplicity and truth
.
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Re: Church Organization

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John,

I can easily find many other quotes, this was child’s play to find.

How do you know the books you read are true when the men who determined what to keep for Scripture reading basically all endorsed Paul?
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Re: Church Organization

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Soloist wrote: Wed Aug 23, 2023 8:41 am Justin Martyr says they met on Sunday.

Contrary to what you say, I have never heard a sermon on
No, what I hear when I go to church, is what type of headcovering should your wife wear? That women should keep silence in the church, so can a woman really teach in the nursery and usurp authority over a man child that is 1 year old, or how old does the male have to be before this is a problem?
I have heard a sermon on
Christ taught about the Law in Matthew 5:17-20.

I have never heard a sermon in any church about how Christ said we would inherit eternal life by keeping the 10 Commandments in Matthew 19:16-19.

Rarely will you hear what Christ said about the rich not being able to enter the kingdom (Matthew 19:23)

Or that you have to provide shelter, food, clothing, and visit people in prison and the sick, or else you will go to "everlasting punishment". Matt 25:46.
Why are Gentiles among the elect then?
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:25  Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mat 15:26  But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
Mat 15:27  And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Mat 15:28  Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
Did Jesus say I came to save the Gentiles?
How do you know we can be saved? After all, Jesus didn’t teach it.
It doesn't matter what Justin Martyr taught, only Christ. John 13:16
Gentiles can only come to God by keeping the Sabbath and through obedience Isaiah 56:1-8
Christ quoted this passage that His Father's House would be House of Prayer for All Nations. Mark 11:17

The Canaanite woman did partake of the food from Christ's table, even though Christ's mission was only for Israel, as predicted by the prophets. Ezek 37:24
Christ said that He and His Apostles were only sent to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel. Mt 10:6, Mt 15:24
The meaning behind the parable of the Treasure found in a field is the same statement or idea. Matt 13:44
The "field" is the world. Mt 13:38.
Christ died and gave all that he had to redeem the Treasure (Israel) by purchasing the entire field (the world).
Or, you could look at it as meaning that we need to give everything for the truth, and for having a relationship with God.
But Christ has redeemed the entire world, and His House is a House of Prayer for all Nations. At least those that follow Christ and hold His Teachings in higher regard than following the doctrines of men.

Here is what Christ said 2,000 years ago about putting other men as superior to Christ and YHVH, and it is still true today.

Matt 15:(7) Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

(8) This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

(9) But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
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Re: Church Organization

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mike wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 8:05 am
JohnHurt wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 7:53 am Justin Martyr does not have the authority to overturn the 4th Commandment and abolish the 7th Day Sabbath. Paul and Constantine also lack this authority.

Either Justin Martyr is wrong, or our understanding of Justin Martyr's words is wrong.
As I expected. You use Justin Martyr as evidence that the early church fathers rarely quoted Paul's writings (which, even if it were true, is at best an argument from silence and does not address other obvious grounds for the inclusion of Paul in the canon), but when Justin doesn't agree with your view, he is wrong.

The best evidence for the inclusion of Paul's writings in the canon isn't the early church fathers anyway. It's the apostles themselves; references already provided earlier in this thread.
It may be that both Justin Martyr and Paul are correct... but are somehow written in a way to make us not understand them correctly.

But the way that many of us interpret their words, the appear to teach doctrines that conflict with the Teachings of Christ. This would be our destruction.

As Peter said in 2nd Peter 3:25-26, we need to be careful that we don't wrest the writings of Paul and others to our own destruction, mostly by not understanding them correctly and then thinking that these writers are superior to Christ.

My challenge to all of us, is that we teach only from the doctrines of Christ, and that when anyone challenges us with the writings of a later disciple that may conflict with Christ, that we hold true to Christ and His Teachings. If you do this, I can promise that Christ will keep His Words:
Matt 10:(32) Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

(33) But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

(34) Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

(35) For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

(36) And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

(37) He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

(38) And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

(39) He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
If you follow Christ only, you won't have any church friends.
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Re: Church Organization

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JohnHurt wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 8:25 am It may be that both Justin Martyr and Paul are correct... but are somehow written in a way to make us not understand them correctly.

But the way that many of us interpret their words, the appear to teach doctrines that conflict with the Teachings of Christ. This would be our destruction.

As Peter said in 2nd Peter 3:25-26, we need to be careful that we don't wrest the writings of Paul and others to our own destruction, mostly by not understanding them correctly and then thinking that these writers are superior to Christ.

My challenge to all of us, is that we teach only from the doctrines of Christ, and that when anyone challenges us with the writings of a later disciple that may conflict with Christ, that we hold true to Christ and His Teachings. If you do this, I can promise that Christ will keep His Words:

If you follow Christ only, you won't have any church friends.
I think the bottom line is we don’t see Paul as disagreeing with Jesus.
Jesus said
Mat 18:20  For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
I don’t see having no church friends allowing to gather in His name.
I think you have misinterpreted Paul’s writings and have stated a few things you were wrong on. Could it be that you have been misled?
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Re: Church Organization

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Soloist wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 8:09 am John,

I can easily find many other quotes, this was child’s play to find.

How do you know the books you read are true when the men who determined what to keep for Scripture reading basically all endorsed Paul?
Christ did not create the "New Testament" Canon. The "Easter Letter" of Athanasius in 367 AD under the Constantine church created the NT Canon.

Paul's writings validated Constantine's success at eliminating the Sabbath and creating Sunday worship, with his edict of 321 AD. That is why Paul's writings are in the New Testament Canon.

We know that the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew was written around 37AD, and was later translated into Greek. John's Gospel was written around 80 AD. The early church accepted these Gospels, but not the writings of Paul.

The Gospel of Matthew - that was the Canon for the Early Church. They did not need any other writings. We do not need anything but what Christ said, either.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were the actual records of the early church, prior to 70 AD. In them, James is called "The Teacher of Righteousness", while Paul is called "The Spouter of Lies".

It wasn't until after the Gnostic Marcion of 140 AD, who invented a New Testament Canon of an abbreviated Luke, Acts, and the writings of Paul, that the shift away from Christ with the emphasis to the writings of these other men began.

So "the men who determined what to keep for Scripture reading basically all endorsed Paul?" - these men who made the NT Canon regarded themselves and their "church" as superior to Christ and YHVH, These men, and their writings, and their supposed "church", should be ignored.

They made many innovations to the Teachings of Christ, "just one" of which is changing the Sabbath to Sunday.

Here is an example of this renegade church supposed "supremacy" over Christ and YHVH by changing the Sabbath to Sunday:
An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine:

Q. How prove you that the church hath power to command feasts and holy days?
A. By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.
Q. How prove you that?
A. Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the church's power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin; and by not keeping the rest [of the feasts] by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power.[10]
The Augsburg Confession:

They [the Catholics] allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the decalogue, as it appears; neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, they say, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the ten commandments.[11]
A Doctrinal Catechism,

Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her. She could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.[12]
Catholic Christian:

Q. Has the [Catholic] church power to make any alterations in the commandments of God?
A. ...Instead of the seventh day, and other festivals appointed by the old law, the church has prescribed the Sundays and holy days to be set apart for God's worship; and these we are now obliged to keep in consequence of God's commandment, instead of the ancient Sabbath.[13]
The Catechism of the Council of Trent:

The Church of God has thought it well to transfer the celebration and observance of the Sabbath to Sunday![14]
The same question we all need to answer is whether the "church" is superior to Christ. Christ never abolished the Sabbath. Isaiah 56 says that Gentiles must keep the Sabbath to enter the God's Kingdom. Who is superior, the "church" or Christ? Who is right?
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Re: Church Organization

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JohnHurt wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 8:59 am
Christ did not create the "New Testament" Canon. The "Easter Letter" of Athanasius in 367 AD under the Constantine church created the NT Canon.
The accepted text was recorded earlier then this and it did include Paul’s letters.
Paul's writings validated Constantine's success at eliminating the Sabbath and creating Sunday worship, with his edict of 321 AD. That is why Paul's writings are in the New Testament Canon.
I know this is a big deal to you, but in the sections I recall the phrase “first day of the week” often in Greek looked more like the Sabbath
κατὰ μίαν σαββάτων ἕκαστος ὑμῶν παρ᾿ ἑαυτῷ τιθέτω θησαυρίζων ὅ τι ἐὰν εὐοδῶται, ἵνα μὴ ὅταν ἔλθω τότε λογεῖαι γίνωνται.
Here is Latin, might make it easier to catch
per unam sabbati unusquisque vestrum apud se ponat recondens quod ei beneplacuerit ut non cum venero tunc collectae fiant
1Co 16:2  Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
We know that the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew was written around 37AD, and was later translated into Greek. John's Gospel was written around 80 AD. The early church accepted these Gospels, but not the writings of Paul.
We don’t know this, it’s speculation. The second part is factually wrong. I can show you lists of text the earlier church accepted and Paul’s writings are among them.

[
b]The Gospel of Matthew - that was the Canon for the Early Church. They did not need any other writings. We do not need anything but what Christ said, either. [/b]
Conjecture. You have no basis for this.
The Dead Sea Scrolls were the actual records of the early church, prior to 70 AD. In them, James is called "The Teacher of Righteousness", while Paul is called "The Spouter of Lies".
Please do show some evidence for this claim. As far as I’m aware the Dead Sea scrolls were Old Testament writings.
It wasn't until after the Gnostic Marcion of 140 AD, who invented a New Testament Canon of an abbreviated Luke, Acts, and the writings of Paul, that the shift away from Christ with the emphasis to the writings of these other men began.
Again, conjecture without historical evidence.
So "the men who determined what to keep for Scripture reading basically all endorsed Paul?" - these men who made the NT Canon regarded themselves and their "church" as superior to Christ and YHVH, These men, and their writings, and their supposed "church", should be ignored.

They made many innovations to the Teachings of Christ, "just one" of which is changing the Sabbath to Sunday.
These men of old you seem remarkably opinionated on although most of what you have said about them is wrong. Have you actually read the early church writings or has someone else told you these lies?
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Re: Church Organization

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For the record, I’m not arguing about the Sabbath John, I’m arguing about the information you are presenting on the early church that is wrong or has no record of your claims
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