Church Organization

[NedFlanders]

Friends,

Here is Christ's answer to everything said so far:

Matthew 28:(19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

(20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The only instruction Christ gave us was to teach others to observe all things that were commanded by Christ. Not the teachings of anyone else.

The "antiChrist" is anyone that takes the place of Christ.

Christ never told us to teach Peter, Paul, James, or whether the other Apostles were deceived or not. Christ never told us to worry about Paul teaching that it is acceptable to receive "carnal things" in exchange for "spiritual things".

And all of us, including myself, are guilty of this. We don't teach Christ and His Message, only what others have said about Him.

To prove this point, when you go to church, count the number of times that the Words of Christ are quoted, and the number of times Paul or some other writer is quoted. The vast majority of quotes will not be from Christ.

I have never heard a lesson in any church, and never will, about what Christ taught about the Law in Matthew 5:17-20.

I have never heard a sermon in any church about how Christ said we would inherit eternal life by keeping the 10 Commandments in Matthew 19:16-19.

Rarely will you hear what Christ said about the rich not being able to enter the kingdom (Matthew 19:23)

Or that you have to provide shelter, food, clothing, and visit people in prison and the sick, or else you will go to "everlasting punishment". Matt 25:46. The churches don't teach it, and so no one knows to follow this teaching. They don't do anything.

No, what I hear when I go to church, is what type of headcovering should your wife wear? That women should keep silence in the church, so can a woman really teach in the nursery and usurp authority over a man child that is 1 year old, or how old does the male have to be before this is a problem?

These inane teachings of men make us go in circles and make sure that our "salt" has lost its saltiness and is good only for the garbage pit, while the Teachings of Christ - like providing food, shelter, clothes to other people as our primary mission - would change the world.

We don't teach Christ, because we don't want to change. To teach that Christ said the 10 Commandments are necessary for eternal life (Matt 19:16-19), means that we would have to restore the 4th Commandment, and return to resting on the 7th day of the week, and meeting on the 7th day as it is the day of the "holy convocation" (Leviticus 23:3)

The writings of Paul were rarely quoted by Justin Martyr and the early church fathers, because he was considered a heretic. Constantine elevated the writings of Paul in the Canon because Paul taught against keeping the Sabbath day. Constantine wanted the Sabbath to be abolished and all worship moved to Sunday, the day of Mithras, the Sun God. December 25th is the birthday of Mithras, when the sun begins to gain power each year. The halos around the paintings of Christ - this is the sun disk of Mithras. Constantine worshipped the Sun God Mithras, and had his coins with inscribed with "Committed to the Invincible Sun". That is why we worship on Sunday.

To follow the Words of Christ means you have to address the Sabbath Day, and many other things.

And if you do, they will throw you out of their churches, as Christ predicted. Matthew 10:17

So John, are you saying that the only things Christ taught are in the four Gospels?

In there He said the Holy Spirit will teach His followers truth too.

And furthermore Acts tells us that for 40 days before Christs ascension He expounded and taught the apostles about the kingdom of God. None of which I know of as recorded!

So then in Acts 6 we have a group of apostles who were taught for 40 days by Christ (which we don’t know what was taught), they had the Holy Spirit according to Luke and Christ did promise the Comforter would come to them in John and then they ordain Stephen as a deacon (a server has the idea of servant leadership as Christ taught - not your ideas of leadership). Stephen accepts the position and then is martyred.

If what you are saying is true then is it so that Stephen accepting a position of leadership that you believe Stephen died in vain and was not in Christ but in error?

[Josh]

Controversial topic: Polycarp’s epistle should be in the canon. John, what do you think of that?

[mike]

We feel we are missing out on something we used to have when we were in close fellowship with all of the other Mennonite churches in our area. We don't know what will happen in the next year or two. We have relatives and friends in these other congregations, conservative or not. I don't think it's good for a congregation to be on its own, but we have had periods where we felt very much on our own, and we are hoping to see new structures emerge that we will want to be closely associated with.

I wasn't thinking of this as a plain or conservative Anabaptist issue specifically. I think it's a topic of broader interest. Why do you think it's not good for a congregation to be on its own? I'm interested in your thoughts.

[mike]

So John, are you saying that the only things Christ taught are in the four Gospels?

In there He said the Holy Spirit will teach His followers truth too.

And furthermore Acts tells us that for 40 days before Christs ascension He expounded and taught the apostles about the kingdom of God. None of which I know of as recorded!

So then in Acts 6 we have a group of apostles who were taught for 40 days by Christ (which we don’t know what was taught), they had the Holy Spirit according to Luke and Christ did promise the Comforter would come to them in John and then they ordain Stephen as a deacon (a server has the idea of servant leadership as Christ taught - not your ideas of leadership). Stephen accepts the position and then is martyred.

If what you are saying is true then is it so that Stephen accepting a position of leadership that you believe Stephen died in vain and was not in Christ but in error?

Yes. Everything you said here. The strangest thing in my view is that John's position cuts off the feet of its own arguments by basing itself on the four gospels, which were written by the apostles who were allegedly deceived in the biggest scam foisted on the Christian church. So the supposedly pristine teachings of Christ were given to us by men who were seriously mixed up, according to John's view. I don't know how he can trust what the teachings of Christ actually were. If they were deceived about Paul, what else were they confused about?

[mike]

The writings of Paul were rarely quoted by Justin Martyr and the early church fathers, because he was considered a heretic. Constantine elevated the writings of Paul in the Canon because Paul taught against keeping the Sabbath day. Constantine wanted the Sabbath to be abolished and all worship moved to Sunday, the day of Mithras, the Sun God. December 25th is the birthday of Mithras, when the sun begins to gain power each year. The halos around the paintings of Christ - this is the sun disk of Mithras. Constantine worshipped the Sun God Mithras, and had his coins with inscribed with "Committed to the Invincible Sun". That is why we worship on Sunday.

To follow the Words of Christ means you have to address the Sabbath Day, and many other things.

I wonder about the truth of the statement that the early church fathers rarely quote Paul because he was considered a heretic. That's doubtful in my opinion. Speaking of Justin Martyr, you may find interesting what he says of the idea that keeping the law of Moses and the Sabbath day is required of followers of Jesus.

https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ ... rypho.html

CHAPTER XXVI -- NO SALVATION TO THE JEWS EXCEPT THROUGH CHRIST.

And I replied, "I do not say so; but those who have persecuted and do persecute Christ, if they do not repent, shall not inherit anything on the holy mountain. But the Gentiles, who have believed on Him, and have repented of the sins which they have committed, they shall receive the inheritance along with the patriarchs and the prophets, and the just men who are descended from Jacob, even although they neither keep the Sabbath, nor are circumcised, nor observe the feasts. Assuredly they shall receive the holy inheritance of God. For God speaks by Isaiah thus: 'I, the Lord God, have called Thee in righteousness, and will hold Thine hand, and will strengthen Thee; and I have given Thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles, to open the eyes of the blind, to bring out them that are bound from the chains, and those who sit in darkness from the prison-house.' And again: 'Lift up a standard s for the people; for, lo, the Lord has made it heard unto the end of the earth. Say ye to the daughters of Zion, Behold, thy Saviour has come; having His reward, and His work before His face: and He shall call it a holy nation, redeemed by the Lord. And thou shalt be called a city sought out, and not forsaken. Who is this that cometh from Edom? in red garments from Bosor? This that is beautiful in apparel, going up with great strength? I speak righteousness, and the judgment of salvation. Why are Thy garments red, and Thine apparel as from the trodden wine-press? Thou art full of the trodden grape. I have trodden the wine-press all alone, and of the people there is no man with Me; and I have trampled them in fury, and crushed them to the ground, and spilled their blood on the earth. For the day of retribution has come upon them, and the year of redemption is present. And I looked, and there was none to help; and I considered, and none assisted: and My arm delivered; and My fury came on them, and I trampled them in My fury, and spilled their blood on the earth.'"

CHAPTER XXVII -- WHY GOD TAUGHT THE SAME THINGS BY THE PROPHETS AS BY MOSES.

And Trypho said, "Why do you select and quote whatever you wish from the prophetic writings, but do not refer to those which expressly command the Sabbath to be observed? For Isaiah thus speaks: 'If thou shalt turn away thy foot from the Sabbaths, so as not to do thy pleasure on the holy day, and shalt call the Sabbaths the holy delights of thy God; if thou shalt not lift thy foot to work, and shalt not speak a word from thine own mouth; then thou shalt trust in the Lord, and He shall cause thee to go up to the good things of the land; and He shall feed thee with the inheritance of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.'"

And I replied, "I have passed them by, my friends, not because such prophecies were contrary to me, but because you have understood, and do understand, that although God commands you by all the prophets to do the same things which He also commanded by Moses, it was on account of the hardness of your hearts, and your ingratitude towards Him, that He continually proclaims them, in order that, even in this way, if you repented, you might please Him, and neither sacrifice your children to demons, nor be partakers with thieves, nor lovers of gifts, nor hunters after revenge, nor fail in doing judgment for orphans, nor be inattentive to the justice due to the widow nor have your hands full of blood. 'For the daughters of Zion have walked with a high neck, both sporting by winking with their eyes, and sweeping along their dresses. For they are all gone aside,' He exclaims, 'they are all become useless. There is none that understands, there is not so much as one. With their tongues they have practised deceit, their throat is an open sepulchre, the poison of asps is under their lips, destruction and misery are in their paths, and the way of peace they have not known.' So that, as in the beginning, these things were enjoined you because of your wickedness, in like manner because of your stedfastness in it, or rather your increased proneness to it, by means of the same precepts He calls you to a remembrance or knowledge of it. But you are a people hard-hearted and without understanding, both blind and lame, children in whom is no faith, as He Himself says, honouring Him only with your lips, far from Him in your hearts, teaching doctrines that are your own and not His. For, tell me, did God wish the priests to sin when they offer the sacrifices on the Sabbaths? or those to sin, who are circumcised and do circumcise on the Sabbaths; since He commands that on the eighth day--even though it happen to be a Sabbath--those who are born shall be always circumcised? or could not the infants be operated upon one day previous or one day subsequent to the Sabbath, if He knew that it is a sinful act upon the Sabbaths? Or why did He not teach those--who are called righteous and pleasing to Him, who lived before Moses and Abraham, who were not circumcised in their foreskin, and observed no Sabbaths--to keep these institutions?"

[Sudsy]

So, bottom line is, everyone that does not obey keeping Saturday as a holy day and not Sunday is breaking one of the 10 Commandments and will end up in hell. So everyone here, except John Hurt is on their way to hell. Actually, all of the early church and those following who met on the first day of the week, if they regarded this as replacing the Sabbath, are hell bound also. Sounds to me like the 'few there be that find' this straight and narrow gate will be a number we can count and not the number Revelation speaks of. I'm not sold yet on 'Hurtism'.

Congratulations Sudsy, you just presented a clear argument for how denominations start. You created one.

From the little I have read by John Hurt, it would appear he is more linked to the Ebionite beliefs or close to it. Looking into their beliefs further, it was not that a Sunday church goer was going to hell but rather they would be 'the least in the Kingdom of Heaven' for not observing the Sabbath properly. Perhaps John would respond to whether or not he is fully Ebionite in belief or just partly.

This link explains some of the Ebionite belief and has some positive things to say about it.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ebionit ... LQ97erL1gc

[Sudsy]

Sorry, my bad. Reading that last link too quickly it actually says the opposite of what I posted about being least in the Kingdom. He said what was meant was they will not be in the Kingdom which goes back to my original statement that Sunday church goers will not be saved.

I got side-tracked by this so it is alright with me if these last two posts I made were moved to the Bunny Trails thread.

[Nomad]

Paul is important to me because he showed the difference between justification and sanctification. There is a difference in the mechanics of how they work in the heart of a believer. One is imputed by faith without works (justification) and one is by a believers heart of faithfulness as they walk in obedience and holiness (sanctification)...we can't have one without the other and they must harmonize rather than isolate one another. Paul (by the Holy Spirit I believe) did a good job of explaining this...at least he did to me. I think this connects well with what Jesus and the rest of the NT teaches.

[JohnHurt]

The writings of Paul were rarely quoted by Justin Martyr and the early church fathers, because he was considered a heretic. Constantine elevated the writings of Paul in the Canon because Paul taught against keeping the Sabbath day. Constantine wanted the Sabbath to be abolished and all worship moved to Sunday, the day of Mithras, the Sun God. December 25th is the birthday of Mithras, when the sun begins to gain power each year. The halos around the paintings of Christ - this is the sun disk of Mithras. Constantine worshipped the Sun God Mithras, and had his coins with inscribed with "Committed to the Invincible Sun". That is why we worship on Sunday.

To follow the Words of Christ means you have to address the Sabbath Day, and many other things.

I wonder about the truth of the statement that the early church fathers rarely quote Paul because he was considered a heretic. That's doubtful in my opinion. Speaking of Justin Martyr, you may find interesting what he says of the idea that keeping the law of Moses and the Sabbath day is required of followers of Jesus.

https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ ... rypho.html

CHAPTER XXVI -- NO SALVATION TO THE JEWS EXCEPT THROUGH CHRIST.

And I replied, "I do not say so; but those who have persecuted and do persecute Christ, if they do not repent, shall not inherit anything on the holy mountain. But the Gentiles, who have believed on Him, and have repented of the sins which they have committed, they shall receive the inheritance along with the patriarchs and the prophets, and the just men who are descended from Jacob, even although they neither keep the Sabbath, nor are circumcised, nor observe the feasts. Assuredly they shall receive the holy inheritance of God. For God speaks by Isaiah thus: 'I, the Lord God, have called Thee in righteousness, and will hold Thine hand, and will strengthen Thee; and I have given Thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles, to open the eyes of the blind, to bring out them that are bound from the chains, and those who sit in darkness from the prison-house.' And again: 'Lift up a standard s for the people; for, lo, the Lord has made it heard unto the end of the earth. Say ye to the daughters of Zion, Behold, thy Saviour has come; having His reward, and His work before His face: and He shall call it a holy nation, redeemed by the Lord. And thou shalt be called a city sought out, and not forsaken. Who is this that cometh from Edom? in red garments from Bosor? This that is beautiful in apparel, going up with great strength? I speak righteousness, and the judgment of salvation. Why are Thy garments red, and Thine apparel as from the trodden wine-press? Thou art full of the trodden grape. I have trodden the wine-press all alone, and of the people there is no man with Me; and I have trampled them in fury, and crushed them to the ground, and spilled their blood on the earth. For the day of retribution has come upon them, and the year of redemption is present. And I looked, and there was none to help; and I considered, and none assisted: and My arm delivered; and My fury came on them, and I trampled them in My fury, and spilled their blood on the earth.'"

CHAPTER XXVII -- WHY GOD TAUGHT THE SAME THINGS BY THE PROPHETS AS BY MOSES.

And Trypho said, "Why do you select and quote whatever you wish from the prophetic writings, but do not refer to those which expressly command the Sabbath to be observed? For Isaiah thus speaks: 'If thou shalt turn away thy foot from the Sabbaths, so as not to do thy pleasure on the holy day, and shalt call the Sabbaths the holy delights of thy God; if thou shalt not lift thy foot to work, and shalt not speak a word from thine own mouth; then thou shalt trust in the Lord, and He shall cause thee to go up to the good things of the land; and He shall feed thee with the inheritance of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.'"

And I replied, "I have passed them by, my friends, not because such prophecies were contrary to me, but because you have understood, and do understand, that although God commands you by all the prophets to do the same things which He also commanded by Moses, it was on account of the hardness of your hearts, and your ingratitude towards Him, that He continually proclaims them, in order that, even in this way, if you repented, you might please Him, and neither sacrifice your children to demons, nor be partakers with thieves, nor lovers of gifts, nor hunters after revenge, nor fail in doing judgment for orphans, nor be inattentive to the justice due to the widow nor have your hands full of blood. 'For the daughters of Zion have walked with a high neck, both sporting by winking with their eyes, and sweeping along their dresses. For they are all gone aside,' He exclaims, 'they are all become useless. There is none that understands, there is not so much as one. With their tongues they have practised deceit, their throat is an open sepulchre, the poison of asps is under their lips, destruction and misery are in their paths, and the way of peace they have not known.' So that, as in the beginning, these things were enjoined you because of your wickedness, in like manner because of your stedfastness in it, or rather your increased proneness to it, by means of the same precepts He calls you to a remembrance or knowledge of it. But you are a people hard-hearted and without understanding, both blind and lame, children in whom is no faith, as He Himself says, honouring Him only with your lips, far from Him in your hearts, teaching doctrines that are your own and not His. For, tell me, did God wish the priests to sin when they offer the sacrifices on the Sabbaths? or those to sin, who are circumcised and do circumcise on the Sabbaths; since He commands that on the eighth day--even though it happen to be a Sabbath--those who are born shall be always circumcised? or could not the infants be operated upon one day previous or one day subsequent to the Sabbath, if He knew that it is a sinful act upon the Sabbaths? Or why did He not teach those--who are called righteous and pleasing to Him, who lived before Moses and Abraham, who were not circumcised in their foreskin, and observed no Sabbaths--to keep these institutions?"

Mike,

Justin Martyr does not have the authority to overturn the 4th Commandment and abolish the 7th Day Sabbath. Paul and Constantine also lack this authority.

Either Justin Martyr is wrong, or our understanding of Justin Martyr's words is wrong.

Christ never abolished the Sabbath Day.

We need to hold to Christ as Supreme over those that followed Him, per His Instruction:

John 13:(16) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Here is where our understanding of Justin Martyr is wrong, and even Christ quoted these verses to show that only the Sabbath Keeping Gentiles would enter the church, so that it would be a "house of prayer for all people" that follows God by keeping His Sabbath Day Holy:

Isaiah 56: (1) Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.

(2) Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

(3) Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

(4) For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

(5) Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

(6) Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

(7) Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Christ quoted this passage in Matthew 21:13, Mark 11:17, Luke 19:46.

The point I made earlier is that the early Church writers did not reference the writings of Paul until around the time of Constantine. That is the question I asked.

If you know about the time that the first quotations of Paul's writings were used as the doctrines of the church, that would be interesting. I believe it was after the time of Marcion, and became "full blown" under Constantine.

Thanks,

John

[JohnHurt]

Controversial topic: Polycarp’s epistle should be in the canon. John, what do you think of that?

Here is what Christ said:

Matthew 28:(19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

(20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:

Christ never instructed us to teach the doctrines of other men.