Church Organization

[Neto]

(Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians, chapt 6)
I do not issue orders to you, as if I were some great person. For though I am bound for His name, I am not yet perfect in Jesus Christ. For now I begin to be a disciple, and I speak to you as my fellow-servants. For it was needful for me to have been admonished by you in faith, exhortation, patience, and long-suffering. But inasmuch as love suffers me not to be silent in regard to you, I have therefore taken (Comp. Phm 1:8-9) upon me first to exhort you that ye would run together in accordance with the will of God. For even Jesus Christ does all things according to the will of the Father, as He Himself declares in a certain place, “I do always those things that please Him.” (Joh 8:29) Wherefore it behoves us also to live according to the will of God in Christ, and to imitate Him as Paul did. For, says he, “Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.” (1Co 6:1)

I do not personally put any special weight of opinion on the early church 'fathers', but in Bible translation it is required that we provide commentary support for any wording that takes an interpretation that is more specific than the bare face of the source text. I Cor 6:1 is an example of this. I do personally take this same interpretation, and I'll just say again that often, in translation, you cannot leave some things as a wider statement, or carrying a rather vague sense. While it IS preferred (to allow the reader to grapple with the meaning in the same way as the translator must), the grammar of the target language sometimes simply does not allow for this. (I think I have quoted this same passage before, using my own wording, which goes something like "Follow me in the same ways in which I follow Christ." This allows for the humility I see in Paul in other places, and makes room for Paul's humanity as well - that he might make some errors in his conduct. And no, I do not mean errors in his teaching.)

[Nomad]

John,

I can easily find many other quotes, this was child’s play to find.

How do you know the books you read are true when the men who determined what to keep for Scripture reading basically all endorsed Paul?

Christ did not create the "New Testament" Canon. The "Easter Letter" of Athanasius in 367 AD under the Constantine church created the NT Canon.

Paul's writings validated Constantine's success at eliminating the Sabbath and creating Sunday worship, with his edict of 321 AD. That is why Paul's writings are in the New Testament Canon.

We know that the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew was written around 37AD, and was later translated into Greek. John's Gospel was written around 80 AD. The early church accepted these Gospels, but not the writings of Paul.

The Gospel of Matthew - that was the Canon for the Early Church. They did not need any other writings. We do not need anything but what Christ said, either.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were the actual records of the early church, prior to 70 AD. In them, James is called "The Teacher of Righteousness", while Paul is called "The Spouter of Lies".

It wasn't until after the Gnostic Marcion of 140 AD, who invented a New Testament Canon of an abbreviated Luke, Acts, and the writings of Paul, that the shift away from Christ with the emphasis to the writings of these other men began.

So "the men who determined what to keep for Scripture reading basically all endorsed Paul?" - these men who made the NT Canon regarded themselves and their "church" as superior to Christ and YHVH, These men, and their writings, and their supposed "church", should be ignored.

They made many innovations to the Teachings of Christ, "just one" of which is changing the Sabbath to Sunday.

Here is an example of this renegade church supposed "supremacy" over Christ and YHVH by changing the Sabbath to Sunday:

An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine:

Q. How prove you that the church hath power to command feasts and holy days?
A. By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.
Q. How prove you that?
A. Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the church's power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin; and by not keeping the rest [of the feasts] by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power.[10]
The Augsburg Confession:

They [the Catholics] allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the decalogue, as it appears; neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, they say, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the ten commandments.[11]
A Doctrinal Catechism,

Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her. She could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.[12]
Catholic Christian:

Q. Has the [Catholic] church power to make any alterations in the commandments of God?
A. ...Instead of the seventh day, and other festivals appointed by the old law, the church has prescribed the Sundays and holy days to be set apart for God's worship; and these we are now obliged to keep in consequence of God's commandment, instead of the ancient Sabbath.[13]
The Catechism of the Council of Trent:

The Church of God has thought it well to transfer the celebration and observance of the Sabbath to Sunday![14]

The same question we all need to answer is whether the "church" is superior to Christ. Christ never abolished the Sabbath. Isaiah 56 says that Gentiles must keep the Sabbath to enter the God's Kingdom. Who is superior, the "church" or Christ? Who is right?

This is just a few questions out of curiosity, not debate. But how far or how much of the Sabbath do you believe we must hold to? Would the Sabbath year and Jubilee year fit in as well? Also, you would still believe the dietary laws would still apply if I'm hearing you right? And, what do you believe has become of the sacrificial Laws?

[Nomad]

John,

I can easily find many other quotes, this was child’s play to find.

How do you know the books you read are true when the men who determined what to keep for Scripture reading basically all endorsed Paul?

Christ did not create the "New Testament" Canon. The "Easter Letter" of Athanasius in 367 AD under the Constantine church created the NT Canon.

Paul's writings validated Constantine's success at eliminating the Sabbath and creating Sunday worship, with his edict of 321 AD. That is why Paul's writings are in the New Testament Canon.

We know that the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew was written around 37AD, and was later translated into Greek. John's Gospel was written around 80 AD. The early church accepted these Gospels, but not the writings of Paul.

The Gospel of Matthew - that was the Canon for the Early Church. They did not need any other writings. We do not need anything but what Christ said, either.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were the actual records of the early church, prior to 70 AD. In them, James is called "The Teacher of Righteousness", while Paul is called "The Spouter of Lies".

It wasn't until after the Gnostic Marcion of 140 AD, who invented a New Testament Canon of an abbreviated Luke, Acts, and the writings of Paul, that the shift away from Christ with the emphasis to the writings of these other men began.

So "the men who determined what to keep for Scripture reading basically all endorsed Paul?" - these men who made the NT Canon regarded themselves and their "church" as superior to Christ and YHVH, These men, and their writings, and their supposed "church", should be ignored.

They made many innovations to the Teachings of Christ, "just one" of which is changing the Sabbath to Sunday.

Here is an example of this renegade church supposed "supremacy" over Christ and YHVH by changing the Sabbath to Sunday:

An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine:

Q. How prove you that the church hath power to command feasts and holy days?
A. By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.
Q. How prove you that?
A. Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the church's power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin; and by not keeping the rest [of the feasts] by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power.[10]
The Augsburg Confession:

They [the Catholics] allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the decalogue, as it appears; neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, they say, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the ten commandments.[11]
A Doctrinal Catechism,

Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her. She could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.[12]
Catholic Christian:

Q. Has the [Catholic] church power to make any alterations in the commandments of God?
A. ...Instead of the seventh day, and other festivals appointed by the old law, the church has prescribed the Sundays and holy days to be set apart for God's worship; and these we are now obliged to keep in consequence of God's commandment, instead of the ancient Sabbath.[13]
The Catechism of the Council of Trent:

The Church of God has thought it well to transfer the celebration and observance of the Sabbath to Sunday![14]

The same question we all need to answer is whether the "church" is superior to Christ. Christ never abolished the Sabbath. Isaiah 56 says that Gentiles must keep the Sabbath to enter the God's Kingdom. Who is superior, the "church" or Christ? Who is right?

This is just a few questions out of curiosity, not debate. But how far or how much of the Sabbath do you believe we must hold to? Would the Sabbath year and Jubilee year fit in as well? Also, you would still believe the dietary laws would still apply if I'm hearing you right? And, what do you believe has become of the sacrificial Laws?

[Sudsy]

Controversial topic: Polycarp’s epistle should be in the canon. John, what do you think of that?

Here is what Christ said:

Matthew 28:(19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

(20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:

Christ never instructed us to teach the doctrines of other men.

No but Christ taught that He would send the Holy Spirit to teach us all things once Christ had returned to the Father. John 14:26. I believe first and foremost our teacher is to be the Holy Spirit who not only teaches us directly and through the written scriptures but also through those who He is using to teach us. It has also been pointed out that many things Jesus said were not recorded in the Scriptures so that says to me that the Holy Spirit would carry on the ministry of teaching us after Jesus left.

Why we don't all have the same understandings on what the Holy Spirit says, to me, that is the bigger issue and personally I believe this has to do with firstly, how we regard Him as our teacher and how we know His Voice above other voices. Jesus also said His sheep know His voice and the voice of another they will not follow. So with all these 'teachers' with varied understandings telling us what God wants of us, do we know His voice telling us the way that we should go or have we replaced His voice with the voices of certain teachers and are not discerning enough of when they are speaking truth and when they are speaking the doctrines of men. And sometimes it will be the interpretations of what was written that Jesus said.

When you use the Matthew 28:19 text if this was to be applied to all believers for all time, then to be obedient, every professing believer should be going to all nations and involved in baptisms as described. And since He was talking directly to the 11 disciples when He spoke this Matthew 28:18-20 text, was this text, 'The Great Commission', meant for all believers ? If so, we are all living in disobedience.

Jesus told His followers that they don't need to worry about what He wants them to do and know as truth because He will send the Holy Spirit to continue on to be their guide. And He did, He sent us the Holy Spirit to not only be with us but to live within us. Even those who have never owned a Bible or have access to one or have limited learning abilities, they too can be filled and guided by the Holy Spirit. Sometimes I think the Bible has been put on such a high pedestal that it has become a hindrance to some of us in being guided by the Spirit. Well, that is another topic.

[Josh]

I know someone who practices many of the OT laws including avoiding pork and Sabbath keeping.

When I discussed with them the OT teaching on usury and the jubilee year (when every property must revert to its prior owners), they suddenly found that such laws would be impractical and wouldn’t apply today.

[Soloist]

I know someone who practices many of the OT laws including avoiding pork and Sabbath keeping.

When I discussed with them the OT teaching on usury and the jubilee year (when every property must revert to its prior owners), they suddenly found that such laws would be impractical and wouldn’t apply today.

Sounds just like a Jew. (Biblical Jew)

[JohnHurt]

This is just a few questions out of curiosity, not debate. But how far or how much of the Sabbath do you believe we must hold to? Would the Sabbath year and Jubilee year fit in as well? Also, you would still believe the dietary laws would still apply if I'm hearing you right? And, what do you believe has become of the sacrificial Laws?

Nomad,

Unlike a lot of people, I believe Christ when He said:

Matthew 5:(17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

(18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

So I have to make my understanding match Christ, not the other way around. Not one jot or tittle.

I keep the weekly Sabbath on the 7th Day, and I do my best about the yearly sabbaths of Leviticus 23. Passover represents Christ's Sacrifice, the Wave Offering on the first day after the sabbath represents Christ as the first fruits, when He said "touch me not". Counting 7 weeks, plus one equals 50 days to Pentecost which was the establishment of the church. The Fall feast days deal with the trumpet of the Lord announcing His Return, that He will tabernacle with us, and the Last Great Day is the Judgment. The Day of Atonement is the day Christ was born into this world, like the scapegoat.

The Sabbath Year and Jubilee would fit in a society that follows God's Laws, they are impossible at the personal level.

But imagine if every 7 years, all debts were forgiven, the year of release. That would destroy the banking system that has made everyone into debt slaves.

On the 50th year, the land, or "means of production", was to be divided up equally. Imagine if the stocks of all companies and their means of production was equally divided among the people every 50th year. There would be no poor, at least for a year or so.

With these two principles in place, then a Sabbath Year could be followed as well. To take one year off every 7 years, that is a 14% reduction in work. Without the burdens of house debt, car debt, credit card debt, government debt, 14% would not be an obstacle.

Everyone will say this is impossible, but we should consider as followers of Christ the other side, namely, "how could it work"? What would we need to do?

We already have the answer. For example in a hospital, it cannot shut down one day a week and everyone goes home and doesn't work. Same for the electrical grid, police, fire, etc.

One of my friends is a doctor that keeps the 7th day Sabbath, and works at a hospital on Sunday. The other doctors that keep a Sunday Sabbath appreciate him, and this works out for everyone.

This is like the Passover that was kept a month later for someone on a journey or unclean. Numbers 9:6-12, 2 Chron 30:2-4. It is not as important that you keep the exact day, but that you keep it as best that you can. Sunday Sabbath is not the best that we can do, but for some people, it is, and I am not their judge. And for some situations, this is a solution.

You may have to make some exceptions in keeping the Sabbath, like how Joshua marched around Jericho 7 days, one of which was a Sabbath.

What you will find in the church is a lot of people that look for these "exceptions" and say that it cannot possibly work, and then throw out the idea entirely - because they want to be like everyone else and not follow what Christ said.

Yes, the Dietary Laws of Leviticus 11 are still in effect. Peter quotes Leviticus 11:44 in 1st Peter 1:16 that we should keep the dietary law to be holy before God in our manner of living.

If Christ said "not one jot or tittle", then also the Sacrificial Laws are still in effect.

And that the Sacrificial Law is still in effect is the point made in Hebrews 9, that Christ entered the Tabernacle not made with hands, and offered Himself for sin, as a superior sacrifice to the blood of bulls and goats. He did not need to offer Himself as a sacrifice repeatedly from the foundation of the world, but once and for all, for all time.

His Sacrifice is the cure for our sin today. So if Christ is still saving us from sin, then the Sacrificial Law is still in effect. Hebrews 9:24-28.

If there is no sacrificial law, if that was abolished, then Christ did not need to die. Christ did not abolish the Sacrificial Law, He became the Sacrifice and High Priest.

Thanks for your question. No one will answer my question.

My question is, "By whose authority has the Law been abolished?' It wasn't Christ.

John 5(43) I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

[JohnHurt]

I know someone who practices many of the OT laws including avoiding pork and Sabbath keeping.

When I discussed with them the OT teaching on usury and the jubilee year (when every property must revert to its prior owners), they suddenly found that such laws would be impractical and wouldn’t apply today.

You can avoid usury banking, and it is a very serious sin, as in Ezekiel 18:13.

But to make all of the rich people re-distribute their wealth or "means of production" to everyone equally - it would take an entire society dedicated to Gods' Laws.

God's Laws haven't changed or been abolished just because we fail to keep them.

[JohnHurt]

So, bottom line is, everyone that does not obey keeping Saturday as a holy day and not Sunday is breaking one of the 10 Commandments and will end up in hell. So everyone here, except John Hurt is on their way to hell. Actually, all of the early church and those following who met on the first day of the week, if they regarded this as replacing the Sabbath, are hell bound also. Sounds to me like the 'few there be that find' this straight and narrow gate will be a number we can count and not the number Revelation speaks of. I'm not sold yet on 'Hurtism'.

That is not fair.

[Soloist]

John are you going to support any of your historical claims?