Church Organization

General Christian Theology
Neto
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Location: Holmes County, Ohio
Affiliation: Gospel Haven

Re: Church Organization

Post by Neto »

I am not a Hebrew scholar, so I couldn't do my own research for the OT translation work. I agree that Gen 3:15 is understood to be in the singular, and that 12:2 refers to the Hebrew nation (singular). But as far as I could tell from what commentaries and translations I had available to me when we did the Genesis translation work (as well as for Galatians), the quotation that Paul is referring to is Gen 17:8, and I'm not aware of any translation or commentary that takes it as the singular there. (But that work was now quite a few years ago, so I may well not recall. Also, Paul of course did not make it plain which Scripture he was quoting, if he even actually had any particular one in mind. If the Orthodox Jewish forum where I was a member was still operating, I would ask about Gen 17:8 there, but it went off-line already some years ago.)
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Congregation: Gospel Haven Mennonite Fellowship, Benton, Ohio (Holmes Co.) a split from Beachy-Amish Mennonite.
Personal heritage & general theological viewpoint: conservative Mennonite Brethren.
Nomad
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Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2023 2:56 pm
Affiliation: Alien

Re: Church Organization

Post by Nomad »

Neto wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 1:22 pm I am not a Hebrew scholar, so I couldn't do my own research for the OT translation work. I agree that Gen 3:15 is understood to be in the singular, and that 12:2 refers to the Hebrew nation (singular). But as far as I could tell from what commentaries and translations I had available to me when we did the Genesis translation work (as well as for Galatians), the quotation that Paul is referring to is Gen 17:8, and I'm not aware of any translation or commentary that takes it as the singular there. (But that work was now quite a few years ago, so I may well not recall. Also, Paul of course did not make it plain which Scripture he was quoting, if he even actually had any particular one in mind. If the Orthodox Jewish forum where I was a member was still operating, I would ask about Gen 17:8 there, but it went off-line already some years ago.)
I think Paul is referencing a common thread of the OT rather than playing fast-and-loose with a misquote. In vs.14 of Ga.3 he links the Gentiles salvation to the Abraham covenant. Then he answers the question of how God was going to bring in these Gentiles who have no knowledge of the Law. Its through the "Seed" in singular form that God did this. The Bible shows this "One" to come through the descendants of Abraham consistently down to the Davidic line. Paul is referencing a concept through the thread of scripture rather than a one-for-one quote (I think). This view gave me a bit more comfort since it seems like we can almost get a view like the Koran where 1 language is the only true translation (though I think knowing Greek and Hebrew is helpful). But, its more about the Bibles message as a whole rather than just a language. I think thats what Paul is getting across here by referring to a principle in the OT of one individual Seed who will save all.
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Neto
Posts: 4641
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:43 pm
Location: Holmes County, Ohio
Affiliation: Gospel Haven

Re: Church Organization

Post by Neto »

Nomad wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 12:28 pm
Neto wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 1:22 pm I am not a Hebrew scholar, so I couldn't do my own research for the OT translation work. I agree that Gen 3:15 is understood to be in the singular, and that 12:2 refers to the Hebrew nation (singular). But as far as I could tell from what commentaries and translations I had available to me when we did the Genesis translation work (as well as for Galatians), the quotation that Paul is referring to is Gen 17:8, and I'm not aware of any translation or commentary that takes it as the singular there. (But that work was now quite a few years ago, so I may well not recall. Also, Paul of course did not make it plain which Scripture he was quoting, if he even actually had any particular one in mind. If the Orthodox Jewish forum where I was a member was still operating, I would ask about Gen 17:8 there, but it went off-line already some years ago.)
I think Paul is referencing a common thread of the OT rather than playing fast-and-loose with a misquote. In vs.14 of Ga.3 he links the Gentiles salvation to the Abraham covenant. Then he answers the question of how God was going to bring in these Gentiles who have no knowledge of the Law. Its through the "Seed" in singular form that God did this. The Bible shows this "One" to come through the descendants of Abraham consistently down to the Davidic line. Paul is referencing a concept through the thread of scripture rather than a one-for-one quote (I think). This view gave me a bit more comfort since it seems like we can almost get a view like the Koran where 1 language is the only true translation (though I think knowing Greek and Hebrew is helpful). But, its more about the Bibles message as a whole rather than just a language. I think that's what Paul is getting across here by referring to a principle in the OT of one individual Seed who will save all.
I certainly did not intend to imply that Paul was "playing fast and loose with a 'misquote'". I wouldn't even call it a misquote (rather, I would say it was an interpretation, or an application). My point was that some of us (myself, for one) tend to be more "particular" ("sticklers") with our use of the Scripture than even the authors of the NT, and also the reformation era writers in our own traditions. I think that the desire to tie everything that sounds like a quote to some particular passage in the OT can make this worse. (The cross-references in our study Bibles are also obviously not "inspired".) But I brought it up because of the challenge it presented in accurately rendering what he wrote, without creating a conflict with the Genesis text that is generally considered to be the source text he was referring to. But I have also taken this discussion pretty severely off-topic, so I should let it go now, but hope I've made it clear that I am not disparaging Paul, or his writings.
(Just one more parenthetical statement here: I am now more free with this kind of thing than I was before spending those years doing Bible translation work. The reason for that is that having studied the Scriptures with the objective of expressing its truths in a language where nothing like that has ever been said before, I generally don't remember the exact wording of any particular English translation anymore, rather just the meaning, so my "quotations" will often combine different textual references as though they were one. I don't do this intentionally or consciously, and I think that something similar may have happened for the NT writers. Working within a given language family is one thing, but expressing the same truth in a language-culture that has a completely different perspective creates new challenges, and this is also what Paul was dealing with - expressing Hebrew language sourced truths in Greek, reaching across cultures and "world views". So I certainly also would not want to give the impression that I think that the truth of Scripture is "hopelessly tied up in the original language-culture". If I felt that way, I would not have dedicated a large part of my life to rendering the truths of Scripture in a totally different language.)
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Congregation: Gospel Haven Mennonite Fellowship, Benton, Ohio (Holmes Co.) a split from Beachy-Amish Mennonite.
Personal heritage & general theological viewpoint: conservative Mennonite Brethren.
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