Justice: Outside of the Church

[Ernie]

Exodus 23:2
You shall not follow a crowd to do [something] evil, nor shall you testify at a trial or in a dispute so as to side with a crowd in order to pervert justice;

Deuteronomy 16:19
You must not pervert justice or show favor. Do not take a bribe, for bribes blind the eyes of the wise and distort the words of the righteous.

Proverbs 17:23
The wicked accepts a bribe in secret to pervert the ways of justice.

In some discussions on MN the last couple years, it has been suggested that civil government and those who are not part of the kingdom of God, do not need to follow the commands of Christ.

A. What about the above verses from the Old Testament? Are these laws for all rulers at all times?
B. Will present day rulers, lawmakers, and judges be judged by God according to these verses, or were these only for the nation of Israel?
C. Does it make a difference if the injustice is committed by a ruler, lawmaker, or judge vs. the average rank-and-file person who supports the injustices?

Here are some ways injustices happen. Perhaps you can think of more...
1. Bribes and favors (monetarily or otherwise)
2. Making a big deal about the crimes of one's "enemies" while looking the other way regarding the crimes of one's friends.
3. Pointing out the inconsistencies/injustices of one's "enemies" while not mentioning one's own inconsistencies/injustices.
4. Disseminating false statements or narratives.
5. Keeping the focus on someone else as a smoke screen to keep people from investigating one's self and one's friends.
6. Concealing information or not talking about one's knowledge of particular crimes.

Please do not turn this into another North American political thread. All such posts are subject to removal.

[Grace]

In some discussions on MN the last couple years, it has been suggested that civil government and those who are not part of the kingdom of God, do not need to follow the commands of Christ.

This question is confusing. We should not expect those who are part of the civil government and not part of the kingdom of God to follow the commands of Christ. It is good if they do, but we shouldn't expect it. You cannot foist or legislate the commands of Christ on those who are not part of Christ's kingdom.

A. What about the above verses from the Old Testament? Are these laws for all rulers at all times?
B. Will present day rulers, lawmakers, and judges be judged by God according to these verses, or were these only for the nation of Israel?
C. Does it make a difference if the injustice is committed by a ruler, lawmaker, or judge vs. the average rank-and-file person who supports the injustices?

I believe all those who are not under the Blood of Jesus, will be judged by God, from the most powerful leader in the world to the lowliest person on the streets. I do believe that leaders, who are more influential on the masses, will be held to a much higher standard of Judgement from God, than the lowly person.

[RZehr]

In some discussions on MN the last couple years, it has been suggested that civil government and those who are not part of the kingdom of God, do not need to follow the commands of Christ.

This question is confusing. We should not expect those who are part of the civil government and not part of the kingdom of God to follow the commands of Christ. It is good if they do, but we shouldn't expect it. You cannot foist or legislate the commands of Christ on those who are not part of Christ's kingdom.

I think secular people can make laws that restrict certain things that are forbidden by God, such as murder etc. It is true that a law cannot, for instance, force some not to cover or lust. But there remains a lot of things that can be legislated. So it isn’t an all or nothing proposition. Can outlaw abortion and bribery, but not require loving a neighbor.

[Grace]

In some discussions on MN the last couple years, it has been suggested that civil government and those who are not part of the kingdom of God, do not need to follow the commands of Christ.

This question is confusing. We should not expect those who are part of the civil government and not part of the kingdom of God to follow the commands of Christ. It is good if they do, but we shouldn't expect it. You cannot foist or legislate the commands of Christ on those who are not part of Christ's kingdom.

I think secular people can make laws that restrict certain things that are forbidden by God, such as murder etc. It is true that a law cannot, for instance, force some not to cover or lust. But there remains a lot of things that can be legislated. So it isn’t an all or nothing proposition. Can outlaw abortion and bribery, but not require loving a neighbor.

You are right about secular people using laws to restrict certain things that are forbidden by God. However many of those laws restricting ungodly actions are based on the greater good of society and the fact they are harmful to others, than on the basis they are the commandments of God. The initial intent of those laws from the nation's founders might have been based on the commandments of God, but in this day and age they are viewed as for the greater good of society.

[GaryK]

Exodus 23:2
You shall not follow a crowd to do [something] evil, nor shall you testify at a trial or in a dispute so as to side with a crowd in order to pervert justice;

Deuteronomy 16:19
You must not pervert justice or show favor. Do not take a bribe, for bribes blind the eyes of the wise and distort the words of the righteous.

Proverbs 17:23
The wicked accepts a bribe in secret to pervert the ways of justice.

In some discussions on MN the last couple years, it has been suggested that civil government and those who are not part of the kingdom of God, do not need to follow the commands of Christ.

A. What about the above verses from the Old Testament? Are these laws for all rulers at all times?
B. Will present day rulers, lawmakers, and judges be judged by God according to these verses, or were these only for the nation of Israel?
C. Does it make a difference if the injustice is committed by a ruler, lawmaker, or judge vs. the average rank-and-file person who supports the injustices?

Here are some ways injustices happen. Perhaps you can think of more...
1. Bribes and favors (monetarily or otherwise)
2. Making a big deal about the crimes of one's "enemies" while looking the other way regarding the crimes of one's friends.
3. Pointing out the inconsistencies/injustices of one's "enemies" while not mentioning one's own inconsistencies/injustices.
4. Disseminating false statements or narratives.
5. Keeping the focus on someone else as a smoke screen to keep people from investigating one's self and one's friends.
6. Concealing information or not talking about one's knowledge of particular crimes.

Please do not turn this into another North American political thread. All such posts are subject to removal.

Is it possible for the leaders Romans 13 describes to follow the commands of Christ in relation to bearing the sword for the punishment of evildoers?
I'm sure my Southern Baptist friends would say it is.

[Ken]

Exodus 23:2
You shall not follow a crowd to do [something] evil, nor shall you testify at a trial or in a dispute so as to side with a crowd in order to pervert justice;

Deuteronomy 16:19
You must not pervert justice or show favor. Do not take a bribe, for bribes blind the eyes of the wise and distort the words of the righteous.

Proverbs 17:23
The wicked accepts a bribe in secret to pervert the ways of justice.

In some discussions on MN the last couple years, it has been suggested that civil government and those who are not part of the kingdom of God, do not need to follow the commands of Christ.

A. What about the above verses from the Old Testament? Are these laws for all rulers at all times?
B. Will present day rulers, lawmakers, and judges be judged by God according to these verses, or were these only for the nation of Israel?
C. Does it make a difference if the injustice is committed by a ruler, lawmaker, or judge vs. the average rank-and-file person who supports the injustices?

Here are some ways injustices happen. Perhaps you can think of more...
1. Bribes and favors (monetarily or otherwise)
2. Making a big deal about the crimes of one's "enemies" while looking the other way regarding the crimes of one's friends.
3. Pointing out the inconsistencies/injustices of one's "enemies" while not mentioning one's own inconsistencies/injustices.
4. Disseminating false statements or narratives.
5. Keeping the focus on someone else as a smoke screen to keep people from investigating one's self and one's friends.
6. Concealing information or not talking about one's knowledge of particular crimes.

Please do not turn this into another North American political thread. All such posts are subject to removal.

In the Old Testament there was no secular society, nor was there anything resembling a church with voluntary membership and so forth.

Religion, law, and government were all one and the same thing. And the Mosaic Law set out in the first five books of the Bible was essentially their Constitution and Federal Code. There was no other set of separate set of civil laws that governed ancient Hebrew Society.

Now we could adopt Mosaic law into the US Constitution and federal code. But we have chosen not to do that for a lot of good reasons, the main ones being that it is as much religious law as it is civil law. And we don’t live in the Bronze Age when laws were brutal and barbaric such as public stonings. Or standards of justice have changed. For example, only two out of the 10 commandments are found in US civil law (murder and theft). The rest are not contained anywhere in civil law other than a few blue laws and prohibitions on perjury. Even Jesus found Old Testament law to be barbaric and obsolete. Also, unlike the Old Testament, he was living in a time when there also existed a separate code of Roman law which both he and Paul said should be obeyed.

Some of the things you list as injustices above are actually illegal depending on circumstance. If they are done in furtherance of some other crime they could be considered obstruction of justice or conspiracy. So, for example, it isn’t illegal to lie generally. But if you lie in furtherance of some criminal conspiracy you can be convicted for things like obstruction of justice, aiding and abetting a crime, and conspiracy. And if you lie in court that is perjury.

[Ernie]

In the Old Testament there was no secular society, nor was there anything resembling a church with voluntary membership and so forth.

My question is whether perverting justice (as explained in the verses in the OP) is a moral standard for all people of all times, or was it only for the Hebrews/Jews?

Some things may not be considered criminal in a country as you mentioned, but a person will still be judged by God for these things. (Take lying for example.)

[Praxis+Theodicy]

Everyone is accountable to God in the end. Jesus Christ reveals the will of God in his fulfillment of the law and the prophets.

But ultimately, civil authorities do what they want. If they want to enforce things democratically, they ask the people. If they want to enforce things in a more authoritarian fashion, they have a strict heirarchy of power, maybe one ultimate person in control (a dictator). How these authorities rule is never going to be perfect, but they exist as a barricade against rampant evil basically destroying the world. There is nothing they "should" or "should not" enforce. Just enforcing any form of justice serves a bigger purpose. Civil governments operate on subjective moral system(s), and will never conform to the perfect will of God.

[Josh]

A. What about the above verses from the Old Testament? Are these laws for all rulers at all times?

The Old Testament already has the law in it, so if you are wondering what expectations God places on judges and lawgivers, one can very easily read the law. (It is easy to find the distinction between ceremonial religious law and the moral law.)

B. Will present day rulers, lawmakers, and judges be judged by God according to these verses, or were these only for the nation of Israel?

Do you think "Do not murder" is a command only for the nation of Israel, or a law that is written on men's hearts? God certainly seemed to judge Cain guilty of this.

Here are some ways injustices happen. Perhaps you can think of more...
1. Bribes and favors (monetarily or otherwise)
2. Making a big deal about the crimes of one's "enemies" while looking the other way regarding the crimes of one's friends.
3. Pointing out the inconsistencies/injustices of one's "enemies" while not mentioning one's own inconsistencies/injustices.
4. Disseminating false statements or narratives.
5. Keeping the focus on someone else as a smoke screen to keep people from investigating one's self and one's friends.
6. Concealing information or not talking about one's knowledge of particular crimes.

I think your list is straying rather far from biblical concepts we actually see laid out in the Bible. The Bible makes it very clear that in a just society, for example, he who sheds blood must have his own blood shed, that is, capital execution for murderers. There are systems set up of "cities of refuge" to avoid never-ending blood feuds, which also shows God's heart of mercy. Likewise, capital execution for witches was important in God's perfect law, as was execution for homosexuality, adulterers, and other wickedness.

It is obvious to me that God expects any judge, lawgiver, or ruler to abide by those precepts he laid down. Modern-day Western governments have strayed very far from this.

[Josh]

In the Old Testament there was no secular society, nor was there anything resembling a church with voluntary membership and so forth.

This isn't correct. At various points OT kings ruled over people who were not Israelites. They didn't expect them to participate in the Jewish religious ceremonies, but I'm sure they expected them not to do things like murder or to use false weights (essentially, fraud).