Q #1 - Why have children ?

[mike]

I think my answer is in the previous post that I believe the future is partially open. I believe God will intervene some day and take control back from satan over this world. Suffering and pain came into the world by listening to satan and not God.

Jesus also after He died went to where the dead people of OT times were located and preached to them. I believe the offer of salvation will also go to those who have never heard in the NT era. How and when, I don't know, although we are currently to be involved. I prefer to believe everyone will be given a fair chance of eternal life. I guess if I was a Calvinist, I would agree that God will only save those He choses to save in this life and will cause it to happen. I favor a view that He is willing that all come to repentance and therefore God will make a way for all to chose to be saved.

Would you argue then that God did not know how much suffering and pain the creation of the human race would bring about, or else he might not have created it to begin with?

I think when God gave man freedom to chose, it would seem to me, He knew that when choice is given a person they may chose against God's will and this leaves the door open for the pain and suffering that satan brings upon man. Satan himself I believe had a will to chose rightly but did not and was cast out of heaven. If God created beings without choice and pre-determine what they would do or even just knew what every man would do, it would seem to me to just be creating robots that really could not chose to love and have fellowship with Him.

When Adam and Eve first sinned they were only given one temptation to resist but satan talked them into disobeying God. When they disobeyed, sin and death entered the world. God did not bring suffering and death into the world, people did by allowing satan to guide them. We all now enter this sinful world and need to be born again and walk in the Spirit to overcome the impact of sin on us. By the sin of one man, sin and it's affects came into the world and made us all sinners. But by one man, the man Christ Jesus, by believing in Him dying for our sins, we are set free from the chains of sin and have everlasting life. 'He who the Son sets free in free indeed.'

And yet, even if God did not know ahead of time that some would choose not to serve Him, he still would have known that the likelihood of that existed, and that this would bring pain and suffering. So even in your view, God is responsible for bringing humans into the world while knowing that pain and suffering would follow. However, as you say, this is not God's fault, because they were free to choose.

How is this substantially different from the view you are criticizing?

[Sudsy]

So, considering having children, does it make any logical sense and seems quite selfish to have children if only 1 in 4 could possibly get to heaven and 3 of 4 will end up in a place of unending torment ?

I'd like to know where you got that statistic.

I have heard it preached that our children are on loan to us from the Lord. This is easy to say when one hasn't lost a child to illness or injury, but we lost a few to miscarriages.

Pregnancy is a result of a husband & wife doing the horizontal hokey-pokey. Why would God have designed it different?

Hers is a quick look at a global assessment of how many in this world consider themselves Christian which shows 33%. This would include many who would not say they have been born again but still consider themselves Christian. I would suggest the 1 in 4 being born again is likely overstated. But say all who profess to be Christian truly are, then 2 of 3 people in this world are not Christian.

https://www.holyart.com/blog/mind-blowi ... need-know/

[Sudsy]

Would you argue then that God did not know how much suffering and pain the creation of the human race would bring about, or else he might not have created it to begin with?

I think when God gave man freedom to chose, it would seem to me, He knew that when choice is given a person they may chose against God's will and this leaves the door open for the pain and suffering that satan brings upon man. Satan himself I believe had a will to chose rightly but did not and was cast out of heaven. If God created beings without choice and pre-determine what they would do or even just knew what every man would do, it would seem to me to just be creating robots that really could not chose to love and have fellowship with Him.

When Adam and Eve first sinned they were only given one temptation to resist but satan talked them into disobeying God. When they disobeyed, sin and death entered the world. God did not bring suffering and death into the world, people did by allowing satan to guide them. We all now enter this sinful world and need to be born again and walk in the Spirit to overcome the impact of sin on us. By the sin of one man, sin and it's affects came into the world and made us all sinners. But by one man, the man Christ Jesus, by believing in Him dying for our sins, we are set free from the chains of sin and have everlasting life. 'He who the Son sets free in free indeed.'

And yet, even if God did not know ahead of time that some would choose not to serve Him, he still would have known that the likelihood of that existed, and that this would bring pain and suffering. So even in your view, God is responsible for bringing humans into the world while knowing that pain and suffering would follow. However, as you say, this is not God's fault, because they were free to choose.

How is this substantially different from the view you are criticizing?

What I find difficult to embrace is the view that the pain and suffering that comes upon us in this world will be even much greater and never ending for those who reject God's free gift of eternal life. This interpretation of certain scriptures that hell itself will not someday be destroyed and punishment will never end, does not represent what I believe the scriptures represent God to be.

The urgency to see everyone go to heaven, I believe, is not to escape endless torment in a lake of fire but rather to live eternally as heaven is described. As previously mentioned my father embraced the belief in endless torment and spent much of his time warning people and sharing the Gospel to escape from such a place. I was raised in that understanding of hell.

However, most Christians I know who say they believe in endless torment for the unsaved don't seem to have any actions that would support such a belief, evangelizing, and seem to go through life not too concerned beyond their own personal salvation. Many are just all into their correct ways of being a Christian and finding a church they can mostly agree with.

Can one say they are following Jesus and yet make little to no effort in participating in His mission to seek the salvation of others ? If they do believe in a hell of endless torment, what does this say about their love for their fellow man ?

And getting back to having children when there is any chance that they just might not make heaven but possibly could end up in endless hell torment, does this make sense to you to take this gamble and force them into this world ? To me, I believe God supports having children and their choice of possibly rejecting salvation would not carry the punishment of unending torment but still would have some degree of punishing.

[mike]

What I find difficult to embrace is the view that the pain and suffering that comes upon us in this world will be even much greater and never ending for those who reject God's free gift of eternal life. This interpretation of certain scriptures that hell itself will not someday be destroyed and punishment will never end, does not represent what I believe the scriptures represent God to be.

The urgency to see everyone go to heaven, I believe, is not to escape endless torment in a lake of fire but rather to live eternally as heaven is described. As previously mentioned my father embraced the belief in endless torment and spent much of his time warning people and sharing the Gospel to escape from such a place. I was raised in that understanding of hell.

However, most Christians I know who say they believe in endless torment for the unsaved don't seem to have any actions that would support such a belief, evangelizing, and seem to go through life not too concerned beyond their own personal salvation. Many are just all into their correct ways of being a Christian and finding a church they can mostly agree with.

Can one say they are following Jesus and yet make little to no effort in participating in His mission to seek the salvation of others ? If they do believe in a hell of endless torment, what does this say about their love for their fellow man ?

And getting back to having children when there is any chance that they just might not make heaven but possibly could end up in endless hell torment, does this make sense to you to take this gamble and force them into this world ? To me, I believe God supports having children and their choice of possibly rejecting salvation would not carry the punishment of unending torment but still would have some degree of punishing.

You still don't answer the question of why God would bring humans into existence knowing the pain and suffering (much of which happens to innocents) that they will endure in their lifetimes because of sin. Why would God do this?

[Sudsy]

What I find difficult to embrace is the view that the pain and suffering that comes upon us in this world will be even much greater and never ending for those who reject God's free gift of eternal life. This interpretation of certain scriptures that hell itself will not someday be destroyed and punishment will never end, does not represent what I believe the scriptures represent God to be.

The urgency to see everyone go to heaven, I believe, is not to escape endless torment in a lake of fire but rather to live eternally as heaven is described. As previously mentioned my father embraced the belief in endless torment and spent much of his time warning people and sharing the Gospel to escape from such a place. I was raised in that understanding of hell.

However, most Christians I know who say they believe in endless torment for the unsaved don't seem to have any actions that would support such a belief, evangelizing, and seem to go through life not too concerned beyond their own personal salvation. Many are just all into their correct ways of being a Christian and finding a church they can mostly agree with.

Can one say they are following Jesus and yet make little to no effort in participating in His mission to seek the salvation of others ? If they do believe in a hell of endless torment, what does this say about their love for their fellow man ?

And getting back to having children when there is any chance that they just might not make heaven but possibly could end up in endless hell torment, does this make sense to you to take this gamble and force them into this world ? To me, I believe God supports having children and their choice of possibly rejecting salvation would not carry the punishment of unending torment but still would have some degree of punishing.

You still don't answer the question of why God would bring humans into existence knowing the pain and suffering (much of which happens to innocents) that they will endure in their lifetimes because of sin. Why would God do this?

One could also ask why would God give satan the ability to resist God and need to be thrown out of heaven ? My thought would be that for God to truly be loved and appreciated He had to allow for free will to exist and not just make robots. There are adverse consequences to not obeying God in a relationship with Him yet God is willing that none should perish but that we all should obey and follow Him. When we step out of following God's ways, as Adam and Eve first did, God requires a penalty and in the case of this first sin, the penalty was described in Genesis and it even was passed unto their children and all future children. Why would God do this ? The answer often given is His ways and thoughts are above ours. We now only know in part but someday when we go to be with God, we will know the correct answer to many questions we might have.

[mike]

You still don't answer the question of why God would bring humans into existence knowing the pain and suffering (much of which happens to innocents) that they will endure in their lifetimes because of sin. Why would God do this?

One could also ask why would God give satan the ability to resist God and need to be thrown out of heaven ? My thought would be that for God to truly be loved and appreciated He had to allow for free will to exist and not just make robots. There are adverse consequences to not obeying God in a relationship with Him yet God is willing that none should perish but that we all should obey and follow Him. When we step out of following God's ways, as Adam and Eve first did, God requires a penalty and in the case of this first sin, the penalty was described in Genesis and it even was passed unto their children and all future children. Why would God do this ? The answer often given is His ways and thoughts are above ours. We now only know in part but someday when we go to be with God, we will know the correct answer to many questions we might have.

So there is essentially no difference between your view and the idea you are critiquing except that you question the degree to which God would allow suffering and pain as a consequence of sin. You believe that God thought it worth the possibility that even innocent people would experience pain and suffering in their lifetime in order to give mankind freedom of choice, but you don't want to believe that God would think it worth creating mankind free to choose if there was a consequence of eternal torment for those who choose the way of sin.

Would that be an accurate characterization of your view?

[Ken]

Simple and related question:

• From the Christian viewpoint, does life have value and is life worth living?

If your answer to that question is yes, then it would seem to me that the question asked in this thread answers itself.

Also, if God did not intend for us to procreate, then the human race would have vanished millennia ago. Why would God create a world that vanished after one generation?

[Sudsy]

You still don't answer the question of why God would bring humans into existence knowing the pain and suffering (much of which happens to innocents) that they will endure in their lifetimes because of sin. Why would God do this?

One could also ask why would God give satan the ability to resist God and need to be thrown out of heaven ? My thought would be that for God to truly be loved and appreciated He had to allow for free will to exist and not just make robots. There are adverse consequences to not obeying God in a relationship with Him yet God is willing that none should perish but that we all should obey and follow Him. When we step out of following God's ways, as Adam and Eve first did, God requires a penalty and in the case of this first sin, the penalty was described in Genesis and it even was passed unto their children and all future children. Why would God do this ? The answer often given is His ways and thoughts are above ours. We now only know in part but someday when we go to be with God, we will know the correct answer to many questions we might have.

So there is essentially no difference between your view and the idea you are critiquing except that you question the degree to which God would allow suffering and pain as a consequence of sin. You believe that God thought it worth the possibility that even innocent people would experience pain and suffering in their lifetime in order to give mankind freedom of choice, but you don't want to believe that God would think it worth creating mankind free to choose if there was a consequence of eternal torment for those who choose the way of sin.

Would that be an accurate characterization of your view?

Well, all have sinned and there is no innocent people. We all have sinned as Romans 3:23 says. There is none righteous, no not one. Romans 3:10. We all came into this world as sinners. There is some allowance though for babies who are not capable of receiving God's gift of salvation.

I don't believe it is God's nature to support the view of unending torment in hell, period. I don't see the purpose in unending punishment. I do agree that God desires that man should bring offspring into the world.

That is about the best I can put my belief. Sorry, if it is not that clear.

[Sudsy]

Simple and related question:

• From the Christian viewpoint, does life have value and is life worth living?

If your answer to that question is yes, then it would seem to me that the question asked in this thread answers itself.

Also, if God did not intend for us to procreate, then the human race would have vanished millennia ago. Why would God create a world that vanished after one generation?

To attempt to be clearly, I did not say nor think God did not want us to procreate.

[mike]

I don't believe it is God's nature to support the view of unending torment in hell, period. I don't see the purpose in unending punishment. I do agree that God desires that man should bring offspring into the world.

That is about the best I can put my belief. Sorry, if it is not that clear.

Fair enough. I'm just trying to understand why you think unending punishment is not in God's nature, but that pain and suffering in this life is. Because you could just as well make that argument - that pain and suffering in the world is not consistent with God's nature.

I think what you are saying is that well, at least pain and suffering in this life comes to an end. But I think your view still must see God as being higher than us with a purpose we can't fully understand in why he does what he does. Which is essentially how those of us that believe in eternal punishment see God. We can't fully understand why there is eternal punishment; we trust God's higher purposes. So in the end what real difference is there between our views? Either way you have to trust that God is good and believe that his ways are higher than our ways.