What happens when you die ?

[Soloist]

I don’t know that I think cremation is wrong, but I don’t want it myself. Although I agree with Sudsy on what is done with the body, I intend no viewing and no preserving of the body. Just put the body in the box and bury it.

[Sudsy]

Luke 16:(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

And what do you think Abraham's bosom represents ?

Abraham's Bosom is a representation of being with God.

This is a parable to make a point avoiding materialism, and doesn't necessarily completely follow reality. I don't think you can see from one realm to the other.

I hope this is true that we can't see from one realm to another. I have even read sermons where they took this to mean that we will see our friends and relatives and instead of feeling sorrow for those in torment, we will look at it as God being just and they deserve what they get. And I wonder how the immediate audience listening to this took it to mean. Is hell a place where being in flames, a person will ask for a drop of water on your tongue to cool it ? 'send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ How can a literal drip of water on the tip of Lazarus finger cool the rich man's tongue when he is in fire ? How could one even talk and make sense if one is burning but never burning up ? And why would the apostles not also use a story such as this if it was to scare people from hell ? Lots of questions surrounding this story if trying to take it literally, imo.

But as far as "angels" carrying you to heaven...

I was with my father when he died from cancer. He was a Christian minister. A lot of weird things happened that last day. But, there was a "presence" in the hospital room, floating above his bed, that he fixed his eyes on, and held his arm straight up and pointed, until he could not hold his arm up any longer. Then he kept his forearm and finger pointed up at it for about an hour. His eyes never left it. This "presence" brought him a lot of comfort. I could feel it too, and it kinda freaked me and my sister out. Everyone else left the room. It was weird. He lost consciousness and died that night.

My second experience with with my grandmother, the last day she was alive. She was in a hospital bed, with an empty bed next to her. When I walked in, she was alone, with her eyes fixed on "something" that was sitting on the empty bed next to her. I could feel it. I tried to get her attention, and even though I felt a "presence", I thought, "this can't be real". So I got between her and the other bed, and she did see me, but seemed disturbed by me. When I stepped back, she resumed her gaze at whatever was sitting on the bed that I could not see, and it gave her a lot of comfort. She died a few hours later.

After witnessing these two events, I think that "the angels carry you home" is a true statement. I think on that last day, you put out your hand, and they walk you down the path to your new home. It is something so beautiful, and it is not scary at all.

After witnessing this, I am not scared of death so much now, I just want to finish the work I have to do here with my family before that time.

But it is a comfort to know that I will be taken care of when I make that journey.

I hope this helps you. If you have any similar experiences, let me know.

Oh, I have lived 65 years, and I have somehow run into several people that have had a Near Death Experience (NDE), and that has always been interesting. One man with a NDE became a full time Christian evangelist after his experience. He cried as he told his story to me.

All of the NDEs have several things in common, which is interesting.

I agree that we need not fear death and I, too, find NDEs quite fascinating.


These events are another validation to me that God has a place for us, and this world is not the end.

John

[Sudsy]

Valerie,

Jesus did not go to heaven when He died. Therefore the thief did not either.
That being said, the thief didn’t go to suffer either.

That always puzzled me. So they went to Paradise that day

The way I understood it, there are no commas in the original Greek. So I read Luke 23:43 to mean:

"I say unto you today - you shall be with me in paradise" - as Christ did not ascend for another 40 days after His death.

Yes, I agree this is a better translation of where to put 'today'.

But the thief was dead, and his consciousness left his body. I don't think the consciousness of the thief is waiting or sleeping anywhere, but that when he left his body, he left our timescale.

From people that have had NDEs, they say our earthly concept of time has no bearing on the other side.

So whether you think you "sleep" or go to heaven immediately - time is irrelevant as there is no comparison between an earthly timescale and eternity.

There is a problem with "infinity" with any calculation. And because of our environment, we think of time as running along a numbered timescale.

There was a start to this timescale when the universe was created, and an end to the timescale when the universe ends. Time has something to do with the existence of matter moving through distance.

If you are outside this reality, without the matter or distance of the universe as we know it, there is no time.

That is my best guess why the NDE's state there is no concept of time on the other side.

And if you fall asleep and then awake, it is like no time has passed at all, so that is similar. When you sleep, you appear dead to others, but to you, no real time has passed. Soul sleep is what the outsider would see, but the person that dies may experience something different.

Interesting view. Thanks for sharing.

In any discussion of the New Testament, I hold the words of Christ as supreme over others. There are statements by others in the NT that are interpreted that the righteous are "raptured" away from this world first. Yet Christ said in the parable of the Tares that the wicked are bound up and burned first, then the righteous inherit the kingdom. If there is a difference in what what Christ and another author has said, Christ is correct and the other author is mistaken or has been misinterpreted.

Seems to me the text says, depending on the version you read, to bind them and put them in bundles to be burned. I don't see a sequence here on the burning will be done prior to inheriting the kingdom.

I don't see "soul sleep" in the Words of Christ, so I am not worried about it.

Just read the words in red, that is all you need. The first 4 books of the NT should be all that you need. Christ is supreme, and has given you everything you need in His Gospels.

However, I believe there is a danger in separating Jesus from all but the “red letters” as it opens the door to deleting any part of the Bible we don’t like.

So I believe Christ knew what He was talking about when he said that the beggar was carried to heaven by angels, while the wicked are buried in a pit. I would hold this view as being superior to all others, because of the Author.

[Sudsy]

I don’t know that I think cremation is wrong, but I don’t want it myself. Although I agree with Sudsy on what is done with the body, I intend no viewing and no preserving of the body. Just put the body in the box and bury it.

That sounds closer to how Jesus was 'buried'. Although He was not put in a 6 foot hole in the ground and covered with dirt or even in a box but just wrapped in a shroud and placed in a tomb. The practise by the Jews according to the Torah is to do this process quickly after death usually within 24 hours as a sign of respect for the dead. No delays and in the sense of timing was closer to cremation. They wanted the body to return to dust asap.

[JohnHurt]

I hope this is true that we can't see from one realm to another. I have even read sermons where they took this to mean that we will see our friends and relatives and instead of feeling sorrow for those in torment, we will look at it as God being just and they deserve what they get. And I wonder how the immediate audience listening to this took it to mean. Is hell a place where being in flames, a person will ask for a drop of water on your tongue to cool it ? 'send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ How can a literal drip of water on the tip of Lazarus finger cool the rich man's tongue when he is in fire ? How could one even talk and make sense if one is burning but never burning up ? And why would the apostles not also use a story such as this if it was to scare people from hell ? Lots of questions surrounding this story if trying to take it literally, imo.

The drop of water is an allegory for "just a little bit of the truth". Otherwise the rich man would want an ocean of water to put out the flame. Christ said that out of His belly would flow living water, so water is a symbol of cleansing, purity, and truth.

I understand this parable was told by the Rabbis long before Christ changed it, and then turned it back on them. The wearing of purple and fine linen is something that the rich Pharisees wore, and the Pharisees did not believe what Moses and the prophets said about Christ, and so then they would not believe Christ if He came back from the dead, either.

The Pharisees were getting rich off usury, something condemned by Moses and the prophets. This parable is a really good condemnation of them.

And the Pharisees want just a "drop" of the truth, just enough to appear holy, but not enough to wash them of their sins.

Christ speaks of the wicked being burned up in a furnace Matt 13:42, but not a torture pit.

The fire that shall never be quenched, where the worm dieth not (Mark 9:43-49), is taken for a literal hell, and is a quote from Isaiah 66:24. This could be a reference to the valley of Hinnom outside Jerusalem, and indicates that hell, or the grave, is large enough to accept everyone that goes there.

To understand "where the worm dieth not" - if it really is an eternal torture pit or just a one time destruction, you need to read the quote from Isaiah:

Isaiah 66:(15) For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

(16) For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

(17) They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

and a few verses later:

(22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

(23) And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

(24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

I still do not see an eternal torture pit idea in this. Just the destruction of those that will not obey, where their dead bodies are naturally eaten by worms, and garbage is burned. And you see the dead "carcases of the men that transgressed", not someone alive in a flame asking for water.

[JohnHurt]

I don’t know that I think cremation is wrong, but I don’t want it myself. Although I agree with Sudsy on what is done with the body, I intend no viewing and no preserving of the body. Just put the body in the box and bury it.

That sounds closer to how Jesus was 'buried'. Although He was not put in a 6 foot hole in the ground and covered with dirt or even in a box but just wrapped in a shroud and placed in a tomb. The practise by the Jews according to the Torah is to do this process quickly after death usually within 24 hours as a sign of respect for the dead. No delays and in the sense of timing was closer to cremation. They wanted the body to return to dust asap.

They exhumed the body of an outlaw that died in the 1890's. All they found were some glass slivers from the window that was on top of his casket, the rest of the wooden casket and the corpse had turned back into dust, or "dirt".

If I could be buried in a pine box and return to dust, I would. But to be embalmed, and buried in a casket with a concrete vault designed to last hundreds of years underground, is an Egyptian concept. I don't want someone playing with my bones. You are supposed to return to dust. But the funeral industry has a "lock" on everyone in some states to require an unnatural burial so they can make more money.

Remember Shakespeare's "Hamlet" - "Alas poor Yorick, I knew him well", as Hamlet speaks to a skull pulled from a grave that is about to be reused?

Abraham was "gathered to his people" in the cave at MachPelah - the body would decompose, the cave animals would help, and when a new dead person was added to the cave, the bones of their ancestors were pushed to the back. That is how you were gathered to your people.

A man dies in the ocean, and is eaten by fish, that are then consumed by other men. A man dies on the ground, turns to dust, and the dust is used to grow corn that is eaten by other men.
In the "resurrection", who would claim the "atoms" that originally made each man's body - because these same atoms were shared by more than one person?
I don't think we ever "resurrect" these mortal bodies, but we are given something much better. Otherwise, there will be a lot of old, ugly people in heaven, and a lot of them would still need to get on a weight loss program.

So I am considering cremation. If you have Biblical reasons not to be cremated, consider 1 Cor 13:3 where it is something you do to save money.

[Josh]

I'd like to be buried in a very simple casket with no embalming, etc. and just placed in the ground.

The challenge is - I'll be dead, and I'm not sure how persuasive I'll be with whoever is performing the arrangements.

[JimFoxvog]

I'd like to be buried in a very simple casket with no embalming, etc. and just placed in the ground.

The challenge is - I'll be dead, and I'm not sure how persuasive I'll be with whoever is performing the arrangements.

Agreed with the no embalming.
But why the casket? Wouldn't a simple shroud be enough? That's what I'm asking for.

So I am considering cremation. If you have Biblical reasons not to be cremated, consider 1 Cor 13:3 where it is something you do to save money.

Cremation isn't cheap, takes lots of energy, and pollutes. Have some friend dig a hole and put the body in it.
https://www.usurnsonline.com/burial/home-burials/

[Josh]

I'd like to be buried in a very simple casket with no embalming, etc. and just placed in the ground.

The challenge is - I'll be dead, and I'm not sure how persuasive I'll be with whoever is performing the arrangements.

Agreed with the no embalming.
But why the casket? Wouldn't a simple shroud be enough? That's what I'm asking for.

So I am considering cremation. If you have Biblical reasons not to be cremated, consider 1 Cor 13:3 where it is something you do to save money.

Cremation isn't cheap, takes lots of energy, and pollutes. Have some friend dig a hole and put the body in it.
https://www.usurnsonline.com/burial/home-burials/

The casket makes carrying the body a lot easier, which was its original purpose.

[Sudsy]

[
I still do not see an eternal torture pit idea in this. Just the destruction of those that will not obey, where their dead bodies are naturally eaten by worms, and garbage is burned. And you see the dead "carcases of the men that transgressed", not someone alive in a flame asking for water.

This fits with my own current understanding of hell also. I find the interpretation of never ending torment and all the justification that goes with this belief, quite not like Jesus who even asked the Father to forgive those who were crucifying Him as they did not know what they were doing,

But then again most people I have known who say they believe in unending torment don't have lives that live up to this belief as they are not out spending as much time as possible pleading with people to not go there and be saved. Real belief will change not only our agreement in our minds but in how we live out a belief.