Christianity versus 'Churchianity'

[Ken]

Best example of non sequitur I've seen for a while.

If they are Christians, it's because they are born again, not because they are Presbyterian or whatever. Christianity versus 'Churchianity.'

It depends on how you use the term doesn't it? To the extent that Catholics and Orthodox ever use the term "born again" (which they tend not to) they would consider that to have happened when they were baptized at a few weeks of age.

Is that how you are using the term? That "born again" simply means baptism and nothing more?

Or are you using the term in some broad sense that doesn't refer to any specific life moment or event but just to one's faith in general?

Best example of the fallacy of bifurcation I've seen for a while.

My mother-in-law is a devout Catholic. If you were to ask her if she was "born again" she would look at you like you were crazy.

So yes, it does matter how you are using the term.

[RZehr]

It depends on how you use the term doesn't it? To the extent that Catholics and Orthodox ever use the term "born again" (which they tend not to) they would consider that to have happened when they were baptized at a few weeks of age.

Is that how you are using the term? That "born again" simply means baptism and nothing more?

Or are you using the term in some broad sense that doesn't refer to any specific life moment or event but just to one's faith in general?

Best example of the fallacy of bifurcation I've seen for a while.

My mother-in-law is a devout Catholic. If you were to ask her if she was "born again" she would look at you like you were crazy.

So yes, it does matter how you are using the term.

Art thou a master of Mennonet, and knowest not these things? Not how Nicodemus thought, “How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?”

The way Jesus used it: Ye must be born again, John 3:3, 5-8.

[Ken]

Best example of the fallacy of bifurcation I've seen for a while.

My mother-in-law is a devout Catholic. If you were to ask her if she was "born again" she would look at you like you were crazy.

So yes, it does matter how you are using the term.

Art thou a master of Mennonet, and knowest not these things? Not how Nicodemus thought, “How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?”

The way Jesus used it: Ye must be born again, John 3:3, 5-8.

Catholics would say that they were born again through the transformation that God’s grace accomplished during baptism at age 3 weeks (give or take). Protestants typically mean something quite different when they talk about being “born again.”

[MaxPC]

Not how Nicodemus thought, “How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?”

The way Jesus used it: Ye must be born again, John 3:3, 5-8.

RZehr, I think you will enjoy reading this article.

What do you think of it?

[Sudsy]

Anabaptists have quite a different belief regarding water baptism than the Catholic belief. They were called Anabaptists as they did not believe in baptizing babies but rather those of an age that understood and had been born of the Spirit / born-again by accepting Jesus as their Lord and Saviour..

Here is an article on the Anabaptist view - https://mwc-cmm.org/nl/node/4148

[Valerie]

Anabaptists have quite a different belief regarding water baptism than the Catholic belief. They were called Anabaptists as they did not believe in baptizing babies but rather those of an age that understood and had been born of the Spirit / born-again by accepting Jesus as their Lord and Saviour..

Here is an article on the Anabaptist view - https://mwc-cmm.org/nl/node/4148

It's kind of interesting because when I was young in the Lord being born again was a very common phrase used. And of course we know jesus's words about it. But when I studied early church history, born again was referred to as your baptism born of water, and of the spirit. At your baptism is when you are crazy mated to receive the holy spirit. So apparently for most of the church history born again was a referral to your baptism. When I was reading an Amish book explaining their beliefs, they too referred to being born again as your baptism. They would differ in the belief about infant baptism and believers baptism, but still they seem to have the same view as the church throughout history that being born again is referring to your baptism.

[Valerie]

From Wikipedia:

"The term born again has become widely associated with the evangelical Christian renewal since the late 1960s, first in the United States and then around the world. Associated perhaps initially with Jesus People and the Christian counterculture, born again came to refer to a conversion experience, accepting Jesus Christ as lord and savior in order to be saved from hell and given eternal life with God in heaven, and was increasingly used as a term to identify devout believers.[13] By the mid-1970s, born again Christians were increasingly referred to in the mainstream media as part of the born again movement."

This explains why the ancient faiths witnessed a "new" and different application of the term that was trending in the U.S. i remember my Dad teasing my sister & I saying "You Born-againers" because historically this was not the same application or category of Christians

[Sudsy]

The Amish utilize the Dordrecht Confession of Faith, a Dutch Mennonite composition from 1632. It states in Article 6 that

“We believe and confess, that, since the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth, and, therefore, prone to all unrighteousness, sin, and wickedness, the first lesson of the precious New Testament of the Son of God is repentance and reformation of life, and that, therefore, those who have ears to hear, and hearts to understand, must bring forth genuine fruits of repentance, reform their lives, believe the Gospel, eschew evil and do good, desist from unrighteousness, forsake sin, put off the old man with his deeds, and put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness: for, neither baptism, supper, church, nor any other outward ceremony, can without faith, regeneration, change or renewing of life, avail anything to please God or to obtain of Him any consolation or promise of salvation; but we must go to God with an upright heart, and in perfect faith, and believe in Jesus Christ, as the Scripture says, and testifies of Him; through which faith we obtain forgiveness of sins, are sanctified, justified, and made children of God, yea, partake of His mind, nature, and image, as being born again of God from above, through incorruptible seed.”

Seems to me this does not say the Amish believe in water baptismal regeneration.

Yes / No ?

My understanding is the Amish do believe in being born-again and water baptism is tied more into joining the church community. This would be closer to the MB belief if I remember correctly.

[ken_sylvania]

Anabaptists have quite a different belief regarding water baptism than the Catholic belief. They were called Anabaptists as they did not believe in baptizing babies but rather those of an age that understood and had been born of the Spirit / born-again by accepting Jesus as their Lord and Saviour..

Here is an article on the Anabaptist view - https://mwc-cmm.org/nl/node/4148

It's kind of interesting because when I was young in the Lord being born again was a very common phrase used. And of course we know jesus's words about it. But when I studied early church history, born again was referred to as your baptism born of water, and of the spirit. At your baptism is when you are crazy mated to receive the holy spirit. So apparently for most of the church history born again was a referral to your baptism. When I was reading an Amish book explaining their beliefs, they too referred to being born again as your baptism. They would differ in the belief about infant baptism and believers baptism, but still they seem to have the same view as the church throughout history that being born again is referring to your baptism.

Well there were people in Acts 2 that thought the apostles had been crazy mated, but that seems to have been the results of them being filled with the Spirit, not of baptism with water.

[Valerie]

Anabaptists have quite a different belief regarding water baptism than the Catholic belief. They were called Anabaptists as they did not believe in baptizing babies but rather those of an age that understood and had been born of the Spirit / born-again by accepting Jesus as their Lord and Saviour..

Here is an article on the Anabaptist view - https://mwc-cmm.org/nl/node/4148

It's kind of interesting because when I was young in the Lord being born again was a very common phrase used. And of course we know jesus's words about it. But when I studied early church history, born again was referred to as your baptism born of water, and of the spirit. At your baptism is when you are crazy mated to receive the holy spirit. So apparently for most of the church history born again was a referral to your baptism. When I was reading an Amish book explaining their beliefs, they too referred to being born again as your baptism. They would differ in the belief about infant baptism and believers baptism, but still they seem to have the same view as the church throughout history that being born again is referring to your baptism.

Well there were people in Acts 2 that thought the apostles had been crazy mated, but that seems to have been the results of them being filled with the Spirit, not of baptism with water.

Accompanied with tongues, yes