Christians Judging Non-Christians

[Josh]

The Bible never talks about “gay people”; from a biblical perspective, gay people don’t exist. The Bible concerns itself that any sexual activity outside of marriage is immoral.

Modern, wicked man promotes the idea that some people are “born gay” and even tries to claim now that children can be “gay” (anyone who claims this is supporting child abuse).

[Ken]

I am simply pointing out that the verses in question in 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy more correctly translate to "homosexual acts between men" as the sin in question. Not simply being gay. And even that is maybe a stretch as the Greek word in question is highly unusual. I am not aware of anyplace in the Bible where two men or two women simply living together in some sort of domestic partnership is identified as a sin.

And I think you know it’s a stretch to have two men living together in a “partnership” or marriage as you first called it and be platonic. Therefore what you’re really saying is that the Bible does not say it sinful for men to sleep in the same house or even the same room. But if you’re going to insist on saying that marriage is not sinful then either support your position given Jesus specifically states marriage is between a man and a woman, or admit that scripture does not support a partnership or a marriage between men.
As for your comments about wealth, I don’t doubt that you can have desires of a homosexual nature without committing sin. Likewise it is possible for someone who is wealthy to enter the kingdom of God. Otherwise why would Paul have counseled the rich to not be high minded or to trust in uncertain riches?
That being wrote, I have yet to meet a millionaire who has an untarnished reputation

You are moving the goal posts here when you write "But if you’re going to insist on saying that marriage is not sinful then either support your position given Jesus specifically states marriage is between a man and a woman, or admit that scripture does not support a partnership or a marriage between men."

Look, I think we can all agree that gay marriage is a modern phenomenon that did not exist in Biblical times. Neither did the internet, electricity, or automobiles. So we are obviously NOT going to find scriptures supporting any of those things. The Bible does, however contain approving references to loving long-term same-sex relationships.

For example, David and Jonathan from 1 Samuel 18: After David had finished talking with Saul, Jonathan became one in spirit with David, and he loved him as himself. From that day Saul kept David with him and did not let him return home to his family. And Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as himself. Jonathan took off the robe he was wearing and gave it to David, along with his tunic, and even his sword, his bow and his belt.

Or Naomi and Ruth from Ruth 1:16: "But Ruth replied, “Don’t urge me to leave you or to turn back from you. Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God. Where you die I will die, and there I will be buried. May the Lord deal with me, be it ever so severely, if even death separates you and me.”

In point of fact, the Bible only contains three or four clear references to male same-sex love and only one possible reference to female same-sex love. The term homosexuality was not even coined until the 19th Century and represents types of relationships that did not exist in Biblical times. Or that were not written about to the extent that they existed. Most Biblical references are really prohibitions on married men sleeping with male prostitutes (child sex slaves) which was apparently what one did with one's friends when one went out drinking in Biblical times.

The Bible rarely mentions same-sex love. It is not prohibited in the Ten Commandments, as adultery is, and it is not prohibited by Jesus, as divorce is. There are simply no Biblical grounds for arguing that homosexuality is a greater sin than adultery or divorce. Or worse than other sins like greed. Indeed, just the opposite is the case.

Again, I'm not arguing that gay sex is endorsed in the Bible. Clearly it is not. And if you believe it is sinful, by all means don't do it.

I am simply arguing that the single-minded obsession that many conservative and evangelical churches have with this one specific issue, to the near exclusion of any other topic, is way out of proportion to the importance it is given in scripture. Especially relative to other more obvious and clear teachings on subjects like wealth and greed. And so, pivoting back to the subject of the thread above, this is an example of where Christians are viewed by non-Christians as hypocritical and judgmental. And the single-minded focus on this one issue is giving Christianity a black eye and alienating younger generations.

I taught HS for 10 years in Waco TX which sometimes has the nickname "Buckle of the Bible Belt" due to being home to the largest Baptist university in the world and a bazillion Baptist churches and organizations. Large numbers of my students came from conservative Baptist families. And what was the #1 issue that alienated them from their parent's beliefs and church? Without a doubt it was the endless condemnation of gay people. This was in the Obama era not the Trump era and so politicization of the church was not quite the issue that it is today. Even 10 years ago in Waco there were lots of openly gay HS kids and evangelical Baptist kids were generally unwilling to condemn them and view them negatively. In fact, many gay kids were themselves, children from evangelical Baptist families. They were just part of HS society like everyone else. Some were popular and school leaders. Some were not. It was just an ordinary mix of kids like any other. And you would no more disapprove of gay kids than you would Black or Hispanic kids. That is just the reality, even in conservative towns like Waco.

[ohio jones]

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viewtopic.php?p=195447#p195447.

[Szdfan]

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Like it is for Jesus?

[RZehr]

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Like it is for Jesus?

[Ken]

Red text is reserved for moderators.
viewtopic.php?p=195447#p195447.

Like it is for Jesus?

I guess at a very minimum, he would hold the title of "moderator"

[Valerie]

I am simply pointing out that the verses in question in 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy more correctly translate to "homosexual acts between men" as the sin in question. Not simply being gay. And even that is maybe a stretch as the Greek word in question is highly unusual. I am not aware of anyplace in the Bible where two men or two women simply living together in some sort of domestic partnership is identified as a sin.

And I think you know it’s a stretch to have two men living together in a “partnership” or marriage as you first called it and be platonic. Therefore what you’re really saying is that the Bible does not say it sinful for men to sleep in the same house or even the same room. But if you’re going to insist on saying that marriage is not sinful then either support your position given Jesus specifically states marriage is between a man and a woman, or admit that scripture does not support a partnership or a marriage between men.
As for your comments about wealth, I don’t doubt that you can have desires of a homosexual nature without committing sin. Likewise it is possible for someone who is wealthy to enter the kingdom of God. Otherwise why would Paul have counseled the rich to not be high minded or to trust in uncertain riches?
That being wrote, I have yet to meet a millionaire who has an untarnished reputation

You are moving the goal posts here when you write "But if you’re going to insist on saying that marriage is not sinful then either support your position given Jesus specifically states marriage is between a man and a woman, or admit that scripture does not support a partnership or a marriage between men."

Look, I think we can all agree that gay marriage is a modern phenomenon that did not exist in Biblical times. Neither did the internet, electricity, or automobiles. So we are obviously NOT going to find scriptures supporting any of those things. The Bible does, however contain approving references to loving long-term same-sex relationships.

For example, David and Jonathan from 1 Samuel 18: After David had finished talking with Saul, Jonathan became one in spirit with David, and he loved him as himself. From that day Saul kept David with him and did not let him return home to his family. And Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as himself. Jonathan took off the robe he was wearing and gave it to David, along with his tunic, and even his sword, his bow and his belt.

Or Naomi and Ruth from Ruth 1:16: "But Ruth replied, “Don’t urge me to leave you or to turn back from you. Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God. Where you die I will die, and there I will be buried. May the Lord deal with me, be it ever so severely, if even death separates you and me.”

In point of fact, the Bible only contains three or four clear references to male same-sex love and only one possible reference to female same-sex love. The term homosexuality was not even coined until the 19th Century and represents types of relationships that did not exist in Biblical times. Or that were not written about to the extent that they existed. Most Biblical references are really prohibitions on married men sleeping with male prostitutes (child sex slaves) which was apparently what one did with one's friends when one went out drinking in Biblical times.

The Bible rarely mentions same-sex love. It is not prohibited in the Ten Commandments, as adultery is, and it is not prohibited by Jesus, as divorce is. There are simply no Biblical grounds for arguing that homosexuality is a greater sin than adultery or divorce. Or worse than other sins like greed. Indeed, just the opposite is the case.

Again, I'm not arguing that gay sex is endorsed in the Bible. Clearly it is not. And if you believe it is sinful, by all means don't do it.

I am simply arguing that the single-minded obsession that many conservative and evangelical churches have with this one specific issue, to the near exclusion of any other topic, is way out of proportion to the importance it is given in scripture. Especially relative to other more obvious and clear teachings on subjects like wealth and greed. And so, pivoting back to the subject of the thread above, this is an example of where Christians are viewed by non-Christians as hypocritical and judgmental. And the single-minded focus on this one issue is giving Christianity a black eye and alienating younger generations.

I taught HS for 10 years in Waco TX which sometimes has the nickname "Buckle of the Bible Belt" due to being home to the largest Baptist university in the world and a bazillion Baptist churches and organizations. Large numbers of my students came from conservative Baptist families. And what was the #1 issue that alienated them from their parent's beliefs and church? Without a doubt it was the endless condemnation of gay people. This was in the Obama era not the Trump era and so politicization of the church was not quite the issue that it is today. Even 10 years ago in Waco there were lots of openly gay HS kids and evangelical Baptist kids were generally unwilling to condemn them and view them negatively. In fact, many gay kids were themselves, children from evangelical Baptist families. They were just part of HS society like everyone else. Some were popular and school leaders. Some were not. It was just an ordinary mix of kids like any other. And you would no more disapprove of gay kids than you would Black or Hispanic kids. That is just the reality, even in conservative towns like Waco.

Dangerous minds & this is what is dividing denominations like nothing ever has. Some will contend for the faith once delivered to the saints and some will twist scriptures and use the ideologies that will paint the picture that same sex relationships are not sin. These are the very people the Bible warns about in the way of false doctrines and teachings that will lead people astray even our children.

There was a gay parade where they eere chanting "We're here, We're queer, and we're coming for your children"

Now which voice of the spiritual realm would that kind of chance be coming from?

Mom texted me earlier that both my sister's Church & my daughters Church in southern CA, both non-denom, were warning of the dangers of LGBTQ.

Jude20-22:

But you, beloved, building yourself up on your most holy faith, praying in the holy spirit, keep yourself in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And on some have compassion, making a distinction, but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

[Ken]

And I think you know it’s a stretch to have two men living together in a “partnership” or marriage as you first called it and be platonic. Therefore what you’re really saying is that the Bible does not say it sinful for men to sleep in the same house or even the same room. But if you’re going to insist on saying that marriage is not sinful then either support your position given Jesus specifically states marriage is between a man and a woman, or admit that scripture does not support a partnership or a marriage between men.
As for your comments about wealth, I don’t doubt that you can have desires of a homosexual nature without committing sin. Likewise it is possible for someone who is wealthy to enter the kingdom of God. Otherwise why would Paul have counseled the rich to not be high minded or to trust in uncertain riches?
That being wrote, I have yet to meet a millionaire who has an untarnished reputation

You are moving the goal posts here when you write "But if you’re going to insist on saying that marriage is not sinful then either support your position given Jesus specifically states marriage is between a man and a woman, or admit that scripture does not support a partnership or a marriage between men."

Look, I think we can all agree that gay marriage is a modern phenomenon that did not exist in Biblical times. Neither did the internet, electricity, or automobiles. So we are obviously NOT going to find scriptures supporting any of those things. The Bible does, however contain approving references to loving long-term same-sex relationships.

For example, David and Jonathan from 1 Samuel 18: After David had finished talking with Saul, Jonathan became one in spirit with David, and he loved him as himself. From that day Saul kept David with him and did not let him return home to his family. And Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as himself. Jonathan took off the robe he was wearing and gave it to David, along with his tunic, and even his sword, his bow and his belt.

Or Naomi and Ruth from Ruth 1:16: "But Ruth replied, “Don’t urge me to leave you or to turn back from you. Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God. Where you die I will die, and there I will be buried. May the Lord deal with me, be it ever so severely, if even death separates you and me.”

In point of fact, the Bible only contains three or four clear references to male same-sex love and only one possible reference to female same-sex love. The term homosexuality was not even coined until the 19th Century and represents types of relationships that did not exist in Biblical times. Or that were not written about to the extent that they existed. Most Biblical references are really prohibitions on married men sleeping with male prostitutes (child sex slaves) which was apparently what one did with one's friends when one went out drinking in Biblical times.

The Bible rarely mentions same-sex love. It is not prohibited in the Ten Commandments, as adultery is, and it is not prohibited by Jesus, as divorce is. There are simply no Biblical grounds for arguing that homosexuality is a greater sin than adultery or divorce. Or worse than other sins like greed. Indeed, just the opposite is the case.

Again, I'm not arguing that gay sex is endorsed in the Bible. Clearly it is not. And if you believe it is sinful, by all means don't do it.

I am simply arguing that the single-minded obsession that many conservative and evangelical churches have with this one specific issue, to the near exclusion of any other topic, is way out of proportion to the importance it is given in scripture. Especially relative to other more obvious and clear teachings on subjects like wealth and greed. And so, pivoting back to the subject of the thread above, this is an example of where Christians are viewed by non-Christians as hypocritical and judgmental. And the single-minded focus on this one issue is giving Christianity a black eye and alienating younger generations.

I taught HS for 10 years in Waco TX which sometimes has the nickname "Buckle of the Bible Belt" due to being home to the largest Baptist university in the world and a bazillion Baptist churches and organizations. Large numbers of my students came from conservative Baptist families. And what was the #1 issue that alienated them from their parent's beliefs and church? Without a doubt it was the endless condemnation of gay people. This was in the Obama era not the Trump era and so politicization of the church was not quite the issue that it is today. Even 10 years ago in Waco there were lots of openly gay HS kids and evangelical Baptist kids were generally unwilling to condemn them and view them negatively. In fact, many gay kids were themselves, children from evangelical Baptist families. They were just part of HS society like everyone else. Some were popular and school leaders. Some were not. It was just an ordinary mix of kids like any other. And you would no more disapprove of gay kids than you would Black or Hispanic kids. That is just the reality, even in conservative towns like Waco.

Dangerous minds & this is what is dividing denominations like nothing ever has. Some will contend for the faith once delivered to the saints and some will twist scriptures and use the ideologies that will paint the picture that same sex relationships are not sin. These are the very people the Bible warns about in the way of false doctrines and teachings that will lead people astray even our children.

There was a gay parade where they eere chanting "We're here, We're queer, and we're coming for your children"

Now which voice of the spiritual realm would that kind of chance be coming from?

Mom texted me earlier that both my sister's Church & my daughters Church in southern CA, both non-denom, were warning of the dangers of LGBTQ.

Jude20-22:

But you, beloved, building yourself up on your most holy faith, praying in the holy spirit, keep yourself in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And on some have compassion, making a distinction, but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

Do you have the same fear and loathing of the rich people in your community and our society? And those who endlessly promote greed and envy which are the basis of our consumer-driven society?

I know who has a greater hold on my children's attention and it isn't the people marching in gay pride parades.

[ohio jones]

Do you have the same fear and loathing of the rich people in your community and our society?

Do not take another's statement and distort it to an extreme.

I do not see "fear and loathing" in Valerie's post.

[Josh]

It’s possible to be concerned about the sin of avarice and also the sin of sodomy.

It is an apt analogy actually: just as many have sought to downplay the NT’s very clear teaching in wealth, accumulation, and the example of Ananias and Sapphira, so so many false teachers today seem to downplay the NT’s clear teaching in immorality.