Salvation by faith and works..?

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Paul
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Salvation by faith and works..?

Post by Paul »

I'm going to be very blunt. In the short time I have been here, I am surprised how many people on this forum directly or indirectly advocate works on top of faith and grace,as a necessary prerequisite for salvation and get quite hostile if anyone questions this theology. There seems to be a very negative view of Evangelicalism or Protestantism as "easy believism" or just a theoretical theology without any life, and seemingly to counter this unbiblical view of Scripture, people go to the other extreme and feel justified to add works as necessary for salvation. But it's a very unbiblical view of salvation, and it's not a minor detail either, it perverts the very core of the Gospel.

I emphasize salvation, because I do not mean to deny the importance of sanctification or bearing fruit. But this will come as a result of salvation, of being ingrafted into the Lord Jesus Christ, and even though it will impact our eternal reward, it is not a requirement for our eternal salvation.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Our eternal life only depends on our foundation, on the Lord Jesus Christ, on His perfect and Holy life and sacrifice on our behalf, and by faith in Jesus this can be credited to our account as our sins were laid upon Him on the cross.

Salvation by grace/faith and works is not a new issue, the Apostle Paul had to deal with the Judaïzers that had crept into the early church, teaching a different Gospel of salvation by faith/grace and works/circumcision/rituals. In the beginning of his epistle to the Galatians he even pronounces a curse on them that do so. Probably the Apostle Paul was getting the same kind of criticism from these false teachers, that many "Evangelicals" or "Protestants" seem to get here. Something along the lines of "he is just teaching an easy Gospel that doesn't require any effort" or "God cares much more for holiness of life, than for some mental ascent to a theological proposition". I am just filling this in, but I can imagine they acknowledged faith and grace had their place, but it wasn't enough for salvation and so they attempted to discredit the Gospel which the Apostle Paul taught, and led the people of Galatia astray with a false Gospel.

Galatians 1:6-8 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


Galatians 3:3-4 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 3:7-9 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Galatians 3:11-14 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Galatians 3:21-26 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
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MattY
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Re: Salvation by faith and works..?

Post by MattY »

Hi Paul,

Are you a member of an Anabaptist group? If not, it will seem like you are parachuting in here to tell people outside of your tradition where they are wrong, and regardless of whether you are right or wrong, it won't be received very well.

If you weren't Calvinist - or at least believing in unconditional eternal security - this might be received better; as you've already given your views on that, it might add to the suspicion with which this post is received.

Now, I am an Arminian Anabaptist, and I agree with your statement that salvation is not by faith plus works. But Anabaptists who wish to avoid that statement usually say that salvation is by a faith that works, i.e. a faith that produces works or fruit. A faith that is simply head knowledge, devoid of a changed heart, cannot save; it is what James calls a dead faith. Paul never calls such mere mental assent "faith"; his faith is a genuine faith that produces fruit, like James's. Such a genuine faith is sufficient for salvation, so when we say that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone, we are referring to a genuine faith that produces fruit. But there are people who believe that a Christian can live in sin and still be saved after simply praying the sinner's prayer. Most serious conservative evangelicals don't, but there is too much of that teaching out there, nevertheless. Anabaptists have been properly allergic to that sort of thinking, so while they have not historically said it is by faith plus works, they usually avoid saying that salvation is by faith "alone", although that statement is true if faith is properly defined as a genuine living faith. (When Menno was accused of adding works to salvation, he didn't counter by defending a concept of faith plus works, but said his accusers were lying, and instead never tired of saying that salvation is by grace alone, not by his own merits at all).
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Salvation by faith and works..?

Post by KingdomBuilder »

It's typical for people to try and separate faith and works. What I see expressed in this forum, and in Scripture, is that this seperation is what's unbiblical.
In fact, your title seems to perpetuate this idea: Faith and Works.

I don't see the thoughts put forth on the forum in the same negative you are, and I spent the first 18 years of my life in Evangelical churches. Are you sure you're not apply some assumptions/ emotion charges here?
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Paul
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Re: Salvation by faith and works..?

Post by Paul »

buckeyematt2 wrote:Hi Paul,

Are you a member of an Anabaptist group? If not, it will seem like you are parachuting in here to tell people outside of your tradition where they are wrong, and regardless of whether you are right or wrong, it won't be received very well.

If you weren't Calvinist - or at least believing in unconditional eternal security - this might be received better; as you've already given your views on that, it might add to the suspicion with which this post is received.
Hello Matt,

Thanks for your reply, let me start out by saying I am from the Netherlands, so afaik there are no anabaptist congregations here. But if anything, the congregation I am a part of comes pretty close, it's a baptist/brethren congregation. It has been my experience so far indeed that any views contradicting anabaptist theology here are met with suspicion and a certain measure of hostility aswell, no matter if the argument is founded in the Word of God.
As there are unbiblical forms of (hyper) calvinism which must be dealt with, so I think there are unbiblical tendencies in every denomination, which must be addressed. I think such a tendency is adding works to the Gospel as necessary for salvation, in response to an empty faith such as James addresses. Nobody is above reproach when it comes to being faithful to Gods Word - including myself. And if you take the Body of Christ seriously, then you shouldn't shut someone out because he is not part of an anabaptist congregation.

God bless you
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Salvation by faith and works..?

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Paul wrote:
buckeyematt2 wrote:Hi Paul,

Are you a member of an Anabaptist group? If not, it will seem like you are parachuting in here to tell people outside of your tradition where they are wrong, and regardless of whether you are right or wrong, it won't be received very well.

If you weren't Calvinist - or at least believing in unconditional eternal security - this might be received better; as you've already given your views on that, it might add to the suspicion with which this post is received.
Hello Matt,

Thanks for your reply, let me start out by saying I am from the Netherlands, so afaik there are no anabaptist congregations here. But if anything, the congregation I am a part of comes pretty close, it's a baptist/brethren congregation. It has been my experience so far indeed that any views contradicting anabaptist theology here are met with suspicion and a certain measure of hostility aswell, no matter if the argument is founded in the Word of God.
As there are unbiblical forms of (hyper) calvinism which must be dealt with, so I think there are unbiblical tendencies in every denomination, which must be addressed. I think such a tendency is adding works to the Gospel as necessary for salvation, in response to an empty faith such as James addresses. Nobody is above reproach when it comes to being faithful to Gods Word - including myself. And if you take the Body of Christ seriously, then you shouldn't shut someone out because he is not part of an anabaptist congregation.

God bless you
If english is not your first language, some of the subtleties of the conversations may pass you by, or you might not pick up on some of the nuances of the exchanges. Religion is particularly hard, I speak a second language and it is hard enough face to face, let alone on something like MennoNet. That being said, many of the participants are quite passionate about their faith. This is, after all, a Mennonite forum.

Are you by any chance a member of the Algemene Doopsgezinde Sociëteit?

J.M.
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Sudsy
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Re: Salvation by faith and works..?

Post by Sudsy »

Hi Paul,

My guess is that it is an issue of fruit inspecting and how it is expressed especially by the more conservative Anabaptists as although the belief is in a faith that produces works, the expected works that prove ones faith includes works of sorts that really narrow down for them who has saving faith and who may not. There can be very high expectations by some regarding who is truly born again and they view some Evangelicals and Protestants and others as too worldly to have been born again. They may say only God knows who is born again but their fruit expecting comes across at times, that those doing certain sinning are doubtfully saved.

There can be true concern for those who are just going through what looks like a 'conversion with little supporting evidence' but there can also be a very narrow view of what a Christian must produce in works as proof they have saving faith and they develop their own list of what these are (i.e. can you be Christian and own a TV or be a Christian and be a policeman, etc). And areas of obedience like the head covering and their view on D&R if not followed are sometimes, imo, put in a fruit inspecting way that you are really living in disobedience. Some would go so far as considering me as a D&R person, one living in adultery and really should have no further conversation with me as a professing only believer.

I agree with you that our salvation is not about our performance in good works. It is not a faith plus works but a faith that does works. Our works as a believer has to do with reward and I don't hear us talking much here about the reward side. A saving faith produces a changed heart that produces good works.
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Paul
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Re: Salvation by faith and works..?

Post by Paul »

KingdomBuilder wrote:It's typical for people to try and separate faith and works. What I see expressed in this forum, and in Scripture, is that this seperation is what's unbiblical.
In fact, your title seems to perpetuate this idea: Faith and Works.
Well it is not a seperation that people make, it is a seperation that the Bible makes when it concerns our salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Buckeyematt2 If you weren't Calvinist - or at least believing in unconditional eternal security - this might be received better; as you've already given your views on that, it might add to the suspicion with which this post is received.
I am simply trying to be faithful to what the Scriptures say, and I know we don't have to live a life of insecurity as to whether or not we are saved. That does not only go for anabaptists but for calvinists aswell by the way, you'd be surprised how many calvinists walk a very narrow path on the broad road of legalism , but do not know the Lord or have security about their salvation.
So I can understand the prejudices and suspicions, but apart from Calvinism vs Anabaptism, I am more interested to hear what Gods Word says. Are the Scriptures suspicious aswell for ensuring salvation by faith? I was reading 2 Corinthians last night, and again it stood out for me the way Paul ensures believers they are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

2 Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

John 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 6:39-40 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

What we do have to ask ourselves is, are we truly in the faith? Is our hope for eternal life entirely fixed on Jesus Christ, and not on our own works? Then there is nothing to fear, because if He is the foundation, I know it will hold - however if my own works are the foundation, I know I have to live a life of fear, because those works will crumble before an absolutely Holy God.

There are those that fall away, seemingly from the faith, but was that ever true faith? I don't think so, and I think those that do fall away belong in the category of 1 John 2:19.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
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Valerie
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Re: Salvation by faith and works..?

Post by Valerie »

Thank you Paul, I have a simple question- you might put me in the category of not being "Once Saved Always Saved" because I believe a person always has free will. That being said, I consider the passage about being sealed by the Holy Spirit, and I do agree with this. But cannot a seal be broken? I don't think that God, breaks the seal but in our own free will we do not lose, we can chose to leave the faith- there are many examples of those who were in the faith whose faith became shipwrecked or who left the faith for the world. I realize 1 John 2:19 implies then those people were never 'of us' but I see some of these people having truly been born again but left on their own free will. Do you believe then, that once a person is sealed, they lose their free will?
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Paul
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Re: Salvation by faith and works..?

Post by Paul »

Judas Maccabeus wrote: If english is not your first language, some of the subtleties of the conversations may pass you by, or you might not pick up on some of the nuances of the exchanges. Religion is particularly hard, I speak a second language and it is hard enough face to face, let alone on something like MennoNet. That being said, many of the participants are quite passionate about their faith. This is, after all, a Mennonite forum.

Are you by any chance a member of the Algemene Doopsgezinde Sociëteit?

J.M.
Well I think I am familiar enough with the English language to understand what is being said, though there always could be subtle nuances that are missed ofcourse. No I am not a member of the doopsgezinden, I did look into it but it seems to be extremely liberal nowadays and not at all seperated from the world, they were also the first church in Holland to have a female pastor. Same goes for the moravian society/herrnhutters, that is still here in Holland.
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Josh
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Re: Salvation by faith and works..?

Post by Josh »

Paul,

I think part of the problem here is the focus on salvation. Salvation is good and is a free gift. But my goal in my life is to love and please God.

Salvation is a by-product of that.
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