Salvation by faith and works..?

[Hats Off]

Neto, am I understanding you to be saying we could lose our salvation if we don't fearfully work at it ?

We do not fearfully work but acknowledge that it is still possible to fail or fall, thereby potentially losing out on the gift of salvation.
"lest I myself should be disqualified" 1 Cor 9:27 or "Phil. 3 10-16."

[ken_sylvania]

... the fact that by the fruit we can know the tree - discern whether or not it is ingrafted in the Lord Jesus Christ - does not mean that the fruit then becomes part of the foundation for salvation (or justification), that honour only belongs to Jesus Christ.

I agree with this statement, and the vast majority of Anabaptist people I know would agree as well. I think it would be fair to say that we believe that an alive faith is necessary for salvation, that we believe that an alive faith will result in good works, and that we believe that a person who carelessly disobeys God is demonstrating that he does not have true living faith...

...at that time.

[In other words, a person could have had true living faith at one time, and then later fail to have that same faith.]

I agree. Thank you for the clarification.

[Neto]

Neto, am I understanding you to be saying we could lose our salvation if we don't fearfully work at it ?

No, I'm saying that a person can reject the Savior, and that would be not persevering to the end, no longer believing. I do not believe that works gains, or preserves our salvation. But Jesus said that if we love him, we will obey him. Salvation is a mystery. I do not claim to understand it fully, so that I could put it into some kind of "logical" presentation.

As far as fear is concerned, an OT text says that "You forgive sin, oh Yahweh, and so you are feared". (Sorry, I can't recall the reference right now, but I've mentioned it before.) It's not a fear like "I'm afraid I will loose my salvation", or "I'm afraid God doesn't love me anymore, because of such & so failure", but it's more of a reverential fear. If God was not a loving and forgiving God, then there would be no reason to fear him, because we would know that there is no chance of pleasing him, So you might as well please yourself for as long as he allows you to live.

[Neto]

From [Rev 3:5], it gives the impression that one's name, if they didn't 'overcome', their name could be blotted out of the book of life- if I understand correctly, only those Born Again would be in the Book of Life- if Jesus could blot one's name out of it, doesn't that give the impression you could lose your salvation?
I do believe we can consider ourselves Christians, but if we are told to work out our salvation as Neto says, with fear and trembling- there does seem to be an implication that we could lose it-but I think that would be willful on our part-

Yes, 'willful' is the key word. (I wouldn't say anyone can loose their salvation, just that they can reject it - not persevere IN FAITH.)

[Sudsy]

Neto, am I understanding you to be saying we could lose our salvation if we don't fearfully work at it ?

No, I'm saying that a person can reject the Savior, and that would be not persevering to the end, no longer believing. I do not believe that works gains, or preserves our salvation. But Jesus said that if we love him, we will obey him. Salvation is a mystery. I do not claim to understand it fully, so that I could put it into some kind of "logical" presentation.

As far as fear is concerned, an OT text says that "You forgive sin, oh Yahweh, and so you are feared". (Sorry, I can't recall the reference right now, but I've mentioned it before.) It's not a fear like "I'm afraid I will loose my salvation", or "I'm afraid God doesn't love me anymore, because of such & so failure", but it's more of a reverential fear. If God was not a loving and forgiving God, then there would be no reason to fear him, because we would know that there is no chance of pleasing him, So you might as well please yourself for as long as he allows you to live.

Thanks Neto. I agree it is a reverential fear. Or, to me, a humbleness to believe it is God working in me to save me and I should respect that by co-operating (walking in the Spirit). When Jesus said if we love Him we will obey Him that this is not a base for others to point at our areas of weakness or disobedience and question our salvation status but rather it is a point being made that love is in obedience not just in words.

Sadly, today, it seems to me, that some worship is more of a feeling thing than it is an obedience thing. "I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship." - Romans 12:1 and "'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me." - Mathew 15:8. Jesus looks beyond our praise to see just how we love Him by our obedience. I would like to hear more of that preached. I need to hear that as much, if not more, than anyone.

[Josh]

Today a person rather committed to unconditional election showed up at the same time as some street meetings I was a part of, to pass out his own tracts and let everyone know they can't choose God, can't choose to follow him, but instead God has to choose them by grace (and that he only chooses some people).

His signature tagline is "Stop trying to do good, you can't do it!"

I do not see this doctrine as beneficial when witnessing to unbelievers on the street.

He is very concerned for us Mennonites that we need to abandon any idea of us doing good or choosing to obey Jesus since we run the risk we aren't fully believing in salvation by grace then.

The whole situation is ridiculous. People are literally dying out here. Let's stop arguing about the intricacies of these doctrines.
Romans, Galatians, James, Jude, 1 John present a good balance. Let's keep following the whole New Testament.

[Sudsy]

Today a person rather committed to unconditional election showed up at the same time as some street meetings I was a part of, to pass out his own tracts and let everyone know they can't choose God, can't choose to follow him, but instead God has to choose them by grace (and that he only chooses some people).

His signature tagline is "Stop trying to do good, you can't do it!"

I do not see this doctrine as beneficial when witnessing to unbelievers on the street.

He is very concerned for us Mennonites that we need to abandon any idea of us doing good or choosing to obey Jesus since we run the risk we aren't fully believing in salvation by grace then.

The whole situation is ridiculous. People are literally dying out here. Let's stop arguing about the intricacies of these doctrines.
Romans, Galatians, James, Jude, 1 John present a good balance. Let's keep following the whole New Testament.

Interesting Josh. I never ran into this in the Calvinists I know that evangelize. Our Baptist pastor would always preach a whosoever will may come Gospel, even though behind the scenes he believed the only ones that would come are those God had given them a new heart to come to Him. Seems like a strange way to evangelize to tell people up front they just may not be chosen to be saved. That is a first for me to hear someone coming across that way. I agree with him saying doing good deeds won't save you but imo, he should then share but Jesus will.

[Paul]

I don't mean to use this passage as a proof text, but it is something I keep in mind:
Matthew 24:
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Also I suppose by passages like Revelations 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

From that passage, it gives the impression that one's name, if they didn't 'overcome', their name could be blotted out of the book of life- if I understand correctly, only those Born Again would be in the Book of Life- if Jesus could blot one's name out of it, doesn't that give the impression you could lose your salvation?
I do believe we can consider ourselves Christians, but if we are told to work out our salvation as Neto says, with fear and trembling- there does seem to be an implication that we could lose it-but I think that would be willfull on our part-

Dear Valerie,
These are very tough Scriptures to understand rightly, and I want to be careful that what I say is truly dividing the Word rightly, also in the humble admission that I don't know anything but praying that the Lord will grant the wisdom to understand His truths. So I will read these Scriptures you mentioned and their context, and pray over this and I will try to respond later on.

Josh The whole situation is ridiculous. People are literally dying out here. Let's stop arguing about the intricacies of these doctrines.
Romans, Galatians, James, Jude, 1 John present a good balance. Let's keep following the whole New Testament.

I do think truth is pretty important, especially when it concerns something so vital as our salvation. The Apostle Paul was concerned with defending the Gospel from false teachers, aswell as proclaiming it to a dying world.

[Valerie]

Today a person rather committed to unconditional election showed up at the same time as some street meetings I was a part of, to pass out his own tracts and let everyone know they can't choose God, can't choose to follow him, but instead God has to choose them by grace (and that he only chooses some people).

His signature tagline is "Stop trying to do good, you can't do it!"

I do not see this doctrine as beneficial when witnessing to unbelievers on the street.

He is very concerned for us Mennonites that we need to abandon any idea of us doing good or choosing to obey Jesus since we run the risk we aren't fully believing in salvation by grace then.

The whole situation is ridiculous. People are literally dying out here. Let's stop arguing about the intricacies of these doctrines.
Romans, Galatians, James, Jude, 1 John present a good balance. Let's keep following the whole New Testament.

This can be a travesty! I was in Holmes County one time and saw a man wearing a sign- who was street witnessing- (he apparently grew up Anabaptist and was somewhat still Anabaptist but outside the mainstream) and another man who was also street witnessing, came up to us (I was talking with the one wearing the sign) and then the two men were accusing each other of teaching 'a different Gospel' and as the tension was rising between them, the one (who I believe was probably more Evangelical type) said "we probably would be better discussing this over coffee" as it was becoming apparent to passers by, that they were arguing.
I agree with Paul that these divisions of understandings of truth is very important- (and interpretations could even be a cause for some to avoid, or even leave the faith altogether.)

[Paul]

Funny, I was reading a sermon by Christian Burkholder from another topic, and I have to say I really enjoyed reading it.

On the topic of faith he said something interesting: "Yet, whoever you are, let us think for a moment, what can be done in the kingdom of this world with gold and silver, and what men do and suffer for the sake of it. Yet as already said, true faith is much more precious than these. For according to the testimony of Jesus Christ, not a soul will be lost that has this faith. He says: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36)."

He then goes on how this true faith can be obtained and what the fruit of this faith looks like, but it seems like this outstanding (according to GAMEO) Mennonite Bishop did believe in perseverance of the saints.

On the topic of backsliding he did also say the following: "Think also what a heavy accountability will follow thereon if you make a covenant with God, pledging yourself to be faithful to Him, and then again becoming unfaithful. I have alas! seen many such in whom I observed a true conviction of sin, a true awakening from the sleep of the same; yea, a proper knowledge of themselves; yet, who, alas! by degrees declined from this state." But notice how he doesn't say he believes that these people were born again, though they were convinced of sin by the Spirit, and they were led to make a pledge, it did not lead them to saving faith but they "fell away from the faith" - so to speak.

This is the PDF if you're interested: http://thecommonlife.com.au/rainham/wp- ... -Youth.pdf